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You can split hairs all you want, but in my case and shared with anyone who asks me for RCF buying advice, I wouldn't own an RCF without the TVD and carbon roof/spoiler. I don't track my RCF and never will. TVD makes a material difference in the way the car takes corners at will on public roads and private road courses. Lexus did a marvelous job with TVD and it is the present plus future. E-diffs are part & parcel on the very best super cars this side of Ferrari and McLaren land. I'm on board.
My 997.1 GT3 is a different story. It's well known that the stock mechanical LSD doesn't work. To get it back and do it right, one ponies up $3K to get a proper Guards LSD installed. I'm betting my RCF's TVD will prove durable and reliable for tens of thousands of miles to come. 20K miles and trouble free.
No doubt if you're not tracking it, it's not enduring abuse, so you have nothing to do with the original reliability question. Again, never claimed it would shatter under daily driving. I merely question it if a buyer is going to being tracking his vehicle, he should consider this TVD does not have a cooler nor do we know how it holds up after being tracked. That doesn't mean it doesn't work or will lock up and explode. It merely means I'd put a question mark next to TVD if I was buying.
I have to ask how I'm splitting hairs? The TVD doesn't really work in the RC F and C&D pretty much proved that from the beginning. not only did it have a better center of gravity, it had a better weight distribution and it still could only manage .4 of a second over 80~ seconds. That to me says, lower those two vehicles and the TVD model is going to be slower. As I mentioned earlier, the diff is a feature meant for the track where double crossing one's hands can have effects on driving not because it will corner faster. I wouldn't comment on other vehicles as that is a pandoras box and what works on one vehicle doesn't necessarily work on another.
Quick input to the OP..... I really like the ML, I play it loud and proud and my passengers seem to like it as well. The carbon is cool, I would suggest it be in a garage and not in full sun constantly. It's not a must have, but I do have it. TVD is a very nice toy, I have it, I use it.
With all due respect, what you are saying is that a TVD equipped car is slower than a Torsen car. That's bologna, I don't think a company like Lexus would spend millions in R&D developing this type of tech and deliver a car that was slower than the base model. Even in the C&D article the TVD car had measurably higher grip around a skidpad. It's clear you are of the opinion that the base diff is better and that's what you purchased because you like it. But to give bad advice to someone seeking it by saying the optional diff is effectively valueless is just not accurate.
Originally Posted by danielTRLK
No doubt, I don't want to spend any money on components nor does anyone here!
I don't doubt feel is a consideration, but in my opinion, that difference in driving was so minimal it wasn't a major thing I'd say would change the experience. I was really cranking out that thing hard and having at one point almost raced bikes professionally, believe me I know feel can be the difference between wanting to take a corner faster.
C/D's article I had read when it first appeared. My only upset about this article is they really didn't compare apples to apples. The non-TVD carries an extra 40-50 pounds on the roof, by their own measure it raised the vehicles COG by a half inch. The TVD also helps the RC F come closer to a 50/50 weight distribution than the non TVD. So what you have is now a model that has better weight distribution and lower center of gravity. C/D claimed a .4 second difference, I bet you without the moonroof that TVD would have been slower. A better example would have been dropping the nonTVD .5" so the moonroof can be ruled out as a variable and placing a 20lb dumbbell in the spare tire holder of the RC F. Weight on the roof is like a lever against the suspension, 50lbs down low on the frame does very little to anything.
Now for a strictly tracked vehicle, since your hands won't cross over, this would allow the average person to post a better lap time, but to even a moderately experienced driver, this wouldn't do much, not unless you're really racing on the track, in which case not having to double cross your hands is a big advantage, especially after you start to get worn and tired. Often times comfort mods were helping us because we could think better at the end of a race not because they were faster. Which is my final concern, I really wish someone had experience tracking this diff hard.
With all due respect, what you are saying is that a TVD equipped car is slower than a Torsen car. That's bologna, I don't think a company like Lexus would spend millions in R&D developing this type of tech and deliver a car that was slower than the base model. Even in the C&D article the TVD car had measurably higher grip around a skidpad. It's clear you are of the opinion that the base diff is better and that's what you purchased because you like it. But to give bad advice to someone seeking it by saying the optional diff is effectively valueless is just not accurate.
Yes, with all due respect to you. As someone with an interesting relationship with both Toyota and Lexus, and consulting for many racing teams including Lexus 3GT, regardless of that, Lexus did not spend millions in R&D on this diff. Even if they had by your opinion, it doesn't mean it would work. I never said it was valueless or didn't work, I said exactly what it's there for, to prevent double crossing arms on the track, now everyone with a TVD is butt hurt because they thought it was supposed to be mechanically faster. It might be faster due to driving experience in the hands of inexperienced drivers but it is not mechanically faster, sorry.
My advice is based on a guy who is tasked with R&D projects and to "analyze things" for OEM's so my advice is based on experience versus defending some LSD.
Let's look at this one last time. The nonTVD model has a higher center of gravity and inferior weight distribution, this directly affected the skidpad rating C&D gave it. Disagree all you want, but you can't ignore that huge bias. Then the TVD only puts .4 of a second over 79 seconds on the nonTVD. That testing was not accurate and quite honestly typical of C&D, where their typical reader would never think about that.
But feel free to elaborate to everyone here, how a car with a higher COG and weight distribution should be tested against a better setup and not be outperformed, because from what I can tell, you're choosing to ignore facts to justify your point.
edit: did you know Lexus stuck speakers to make fake exhaust noises to make this car feel better?
I'm going to make this a little easier.
Here are the figures from Car and Driver testing:
If this difference (+Carbon Fiber roof and wing -No moonroof) justifies an extra $5,500 to you, then do it.
Daniel is much more sensitive to mechanical parts/fluids and likes looking a lot further down the line compared to most people.
If you are as well, then I'd say heeding his advice would be useful.
It's really up to each individual when it comes down to their situation.
How and where they drive their car in what conditions will always be the biggest factor.
Best of luck and welcome to the club.
EDIT: Didn't realize you were in GA. Once you get the car we can do a small get together with the other RC-F's.
I think its great that you consult for OEM's but it doesnt mean you are correct on this. First, not all TVD equipped cars have the carbon roof. So invariably those cars (like mine) will have more weight in the roof and thus a higher center of gravity. I drove my non carbon roof TVD car back to back with a standard torsen equipped RCF. To me the difference was night and day in how the car turned in and reacted. I am not the only one who thinks this, see a snippet from the article below in the magazine drive.
Its too easy to attribute the difference in performance to a slight difference in center of gravity. Why are you downplaying the fact the TVD car requires far less steering angle in the slalom which means its easier to drive fast. Why wouldn't that equate to a driver putting down a faster timed lap? Also, the TVD car has a heavy diff in the back which changes the weight distribution. More weight over the rear tires generally equals more grip. Going back to what OP was asking and as many had opined here, to me there's no point in owning an RCF without the TVD. It would be akin to owning a Tesla without the Autopilot option, the TVD like Autopilot changes the experience completely.
Originally Posted by danielTRLK
Yes, with all due respect to you. As someone with an interesting relationship with both Toyota and Lexus, and consulting for many racing teams including Lexus 3GT, regardless of that, Lexus did not spend millions in R&D on this diff. Even if they had by your opinion, it doesn't mean it would work. I never said it was valueless or didn't work, I said exactly what it's there for, to prevent double crossing arms on the track, now everyone with a TVD is butt hurt because they thought it was supposed to be mechanically faster. It might be faster due to driving experience in the hands of inexperienced drivers but it is not mechanically faster, sorry.
My advice is based on a guy who is tasked with R&D projects and to "analyze things" for OEM's so my advice is based on experience versus defending some LSD.
Let's look at this one last time. The nonTVD model has a higher center of gravity and inferior weight distribution, this directly affected the skidpad rating C&D gave it. Disagree all you want, but you can't ignore that huge bias. Then the TVD only puts .4 of a second over 79 seconds on the nonTVD. That testing was not accurate and quite honestly typical of C&D, where their typical reader would never think about that.
But feel free to elaborate to everyone here, how a car with a higher COG and weight distribution should be tested against a better setup and not be outperformed, because from what I can tell, you're choosing to ignore facts to justify your point.
edit: did you know Lexus stuck speakers to make fake exhaust noises to make this car feel better?
I think its great that you consult for OEM's but it doesnt mean you are correct on this. First, not all TVD equipped cars have the carbon roof. So invariably those cars (like mine) will have more weight in the roof and thus a higher center of gravity. I drove my non carbon roof TVD car back to back with a standard torsen equipped RCF. To me the difference was night and day in how the car turned in and reacted. I am not the only one who thinks this, see a snippet from the article below in the magazine drive.
Its too easy to attribute the difference in performance to a slight difference in center of gravity. Why are you downplaying the fact the TVD car requires far less steering angle in the slalom which means its easier to drive fast. Why wouldn't that equate to a driver putting down a faster timed lap? Also, the TVD car has a heavy diff in the back which changes the weight distribution. More weight over the rear tires generally equals more grip. Going back to what OP was asking and as many had opined here, to me there's no point in owning an RCF without the TVD. It would be akin to owning a Tesla without the Autopilot option, the TVD like Autopilot changes the experience completely.
I thought this discussion was over. It's ironic what you're saying......
"I never said it was valueless or didn't work, I said exactly what it's there for, to prevent double crossing arms on the track, now everyone with a TVD is butt hurt because they thought it was supposed to be mechanically faster. It might be faster due to driving experience in the hands of inexperienced drivers but it is not mechanically faster, sorry." - my words.
I don't care what a magazine says, LOL. You should be aware they have to go along with certain things or they don't get cars for future reviews. Especially when readership is at an all time low.
The performance difference was .4 of a second over 79 seconds. Had the TVD had the moonroof, it would have been slower than the LSD. The TVD is slower, face it or don't, we'll disagree and just continue to drive. My knowledge is based on fact, experience, insider knowledge and data, your's are opinions which you can't quantify. The fact you think COG has little bearing shows your lack of understanding of vehicular dynamics, and while I primarily specialize in engines, transmissions and differentials, I also have to know how to measure and set bench marks to gauge performance and differences, this is part of my job. Analyzing performance is highly critical and something I have to do every day. As one of my last posts on CL, understand, you would never normally get access to a guy like me. I bring secrets, few will ever reveal or care to reveal! Your stuck reading the marketing while I'm calculating numbers that will never even get publicly shown and I've noticed many have not liked being told what they thought wasn't so true, so they turn it around on me. I have never made comments to hurt others or invalidate purchases, I make comments to help bring science to the table, not some sales spew.
If the TVD gave you the confidence you needed to drive more aggressively, safely, then all the props to you and congrats on the purchase. I highly recommend attending a driving school, such as Skip Barber, to really become a better driver and compliment your vehicle. It is my personal opinion that more people should attend driving schools before purchasing performance vehicles. As the old saying goes, it's more fun to go fast on something slow, than slow on something fast. Don't take it as an insult or me calling you slow, it merely is me saying I see many here spending big $$$ but few are investing in themselves. Remember, at some point this RC F will be a rust box, but the skills you learn today are carried over for the rest of your life.
Your opinion ceased to matter when you said: "I don't care what a magazine says." Effectively what you are saying is that I don't care what any other expert says because I'm a self proclaimed expert and no one else's opinion matters. No one is "butt hurt" here except for you it seems. Such a fragile snowflake you are. Next time I suggest keeping your "secrets" to yourself because you didn't disprove my point at all. I never stated center of gravity didn't matter. All I said is that the TVD car had better weight distribution and had measurable performance differences that can't only be attributed to a sunroof. Everyone here is entitled to an opinion, yours isn't more valuable because you claim to know the laws of physics better.
Originally Posted by danielTRLK
I thought this discussion was over. It's ironic what you're saying......
"I never said it was valueless or didn't work, I said exactly what it's there for, to prevent double crossing arms on the track, now everyone with a TVD is butt hurt because they thought it was supposed to be mechanically faster. It might be faster due to driving experience in the hands of inexperienced drivers but it is not mechanically faster, sorry." - my words.
I don't care what a magazine says, LOL. You should be aware they have to go along with certain things or they don't get cars for future reviews. Especially when readership is at an all time low.
The performance difference was .4 of a second over 79 seconds. Had the TVD had the moonroof, it would have been slower than the LSD. The TVD is slower, face it or don't, we'll disagree and just continue to drive. My knowledge is based on fact, experience, insider knowledge and data, your's are opinions which you can't quantify. The fact you think COG has little bearing shows your lack of understanding of vehicular dynamics, and while I primarily specialize in engines, transmissions and differentials, I also have to know how to measure and set bench marks to gauge performance and differences, this is part of my job. Analyzing performance is highly critical and something I have to do every day. As one of my last posts on CL, understand, you would never normally get access to a guy like me. I bring secrets, few will ever reveal or care to reveal! Your stuck reading the marketing while I'm calculating numbers that will never even get publicly shown and I've noticed many have not liked being told what they thought wasn't so true, so they turn it around on me. I have never made comments to hurt others or invalidate purchases, I make comments to help bring science to the table, not some sales spew.
If the TVD gave you the confidence you needed to drive more aggressively, safely, then all the props to you and congrats on the purchase. I highly recommend attending a driving school, such as Skip Barber, to really become a better driver and compliment your vehicle. It is my personal opinion that more people should attend driving schools before purchasing performance vehicles. As the old saying goes, it's more fun to go fast on something slow, than slow on something fast. Don't take it as an insult or me calling you slow, it merely is me saying I see many here spending big $$$ but few are investing in themselves. Remember, at some point this RC F will be a rust box, but the skills you learn today are carried over for the rest of your life.
Your opinion ceased to matter when you said: "I don't care what a magazine says." Effectively what you are saying is that I don't care what any other expert says because I'm a self proclaimed expert and no one else's opinion matters. No one is "butt hurt" here except for you it seems. Such a fragile snowflake you are. Next time I suggest keeping your "secrets" to yourself because you didn't disprove my point at all. I never stated center of gravity didn't matter. All I said is that the TVD car had better weight distribution and had measurable performance differences that can't only be attributed to a sunroof. Everyone here is entitled to an opinion, yours isn't more valuable because you claim to know the laws of physics better.
98GS, I dropped the argument but you kept commenting. Magazines have other things to keep in mind, let me remind you magazines frequently flip flop on things. Just like in the 2000's magazines were saying to stay away from synthetics, just like the article last week in Road and Track said UOA is useless. You must believe everything you read, except when you read something that says don't believe everything you read. You behave and react as if I haven't allowed you to maintain your opinion. You're upset and will continue to be. I can say nothing to you nor would I care. You can continue buying the marketing as you willfully choose.
Calling me a snowflake, I could gladly return the compliment but I'll abstain. I can't disprove your point because you make your own scientific answers. You pick and choose data when it works for you and disregard it when it doesn't suit you. Lol and this is why I'm done with CL. I spend time responding only to have others bash me in the face of data proving exactly what I'm saying. For what? to each his own, enjoy your weekend.
07-13-17, 01:42 PM
