My0gr81

Glad Toyota is realizing that Kaizan (continous improvement) needs to be balanced with breakthrough changes. They've let Toyota / Lexus slowly but surely fall behind the competition a little bit at a time.

My0gr81

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle are EV's by definition, just that electric current is generated on demand by hydrogen based fuel instead of stored in a battery charged from a source off board.

Sulu

Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember it but would not have tied it to Toyota had you not reminded me.

But that was my point. People read this and think that Toyota has only just started working on the solid-state battery now, when they have been working hard on it for ten years or more, just as they have been working on hydrogen fuel cells for more than a decade.

Hydrogen fuel cells became producible and marketable earlier than the ideal EV battery, and Toyota corporate told us that fuel cell vehicles are the future to get us off their backs about Li-ion and solid-state batteries.

Sulu

Hydrogen fuel cells can also be used as a "clean-source" range-extender, in place of the gasoline-fed internal combustion engine in plug-in hybrids. It all depends upon the size and capacity of the battery.

I remember when the first Prii came out, that Toyota said that the power-split device hybrid vehicle transmission was designed to take different power sources, not just the gasoline-fed ICE.

natnut

Let's hope this technology leads to more weight savings in their Lexus hybrids since excess weight has been a bugbear in the ultimate handling and performance of mainstream hybrid cars.

Lighter batteries = lighter weight penalties in my future GS500h please (hopefully)

webra

Most of its rivals are already lighter thus you are likely to get your wish for lighter Lexus cars.
In performance they seem to aim to match competors previous, rather than current models, so weight may not be the only handicap for the compromised performance of its models.

natnut

As long as it's faster , handles better and is more fuel efficient than my 2009 GS450h, I'd be happy.

My GS450h smokes almost every other German car not named M/RS/AMG in a straight line but is terribly overweight and leans far too much in the corners and the FC is horrible for a hybrid. Love its smoothness and immense overtaking ability though. The instant torque allows me to merge and overtake effortlessly.

Hope the upcoming GS500h addresses those shortcomings...

webra

Unlikely, I think, as they can't make any GS hybrid faster than the LCh, which, by this test shows it's barely faster than your car anyhow.

peteharvey

You're right Natnut - the only way for weight savings is a major breakthrough in battery energy density technology.

Your 1st gen GS450h was deliberately engineered for performance, but in addition to that, the 1st generation NiCad battery has the ability to release electrical energy very quickly to further facilitate high performance via big electric motors.
The 2nd gen GS450h has a 2nd gen NiMH which has medium energy density, and hence a much bigger trunk, but NiMH has a slower energy release rate than NiCad, hence slower acceleration too.
Did you notice how cordless power tools, like cordless drills, are generally only available in the old NiCad, or the current gen Lion, and they were generally not available in 2nd gen NiMH due to NiMH's slow ability to discharge?

Theoretically, the 3rd gen Lion batteries have higher energy density, and a very fast discharge rate, so should provide much more performance.
However, even with the Tesla Model S weighing 30% more than a stock GS350, it is all a compromize.
There will be two different types of cars.

One type has maximum linear performance like the excessively heavy Tesla Model S, and the forthcoming very heavy 7th gen ES with AWD to release 3.5 V6 twin turbo power onto all four paws for maximum traction to bolt out of corners.
Due to the "polar moment of inertia", these linear performance vehicles will be reluctant to change direction, in other words, agility will be compromized due to weight.

The second type of vehicle will be vehicles dedicated to handling and dynamics, eg Mazda MX-5 Miata, and the current GS350 etc.
With only rear wheel drive, these vehicles are lightweight, and therefore a lower polar moment of inertia, and agile.
However, they don't have the linear power, and if they did have the linear power, it would have to be matched with the extra weight of a twin turbo and AWD.

The further the engine, fuel tank and battery is positioned from the center of gravity [which is the yaw center], the higher the polar moment of inertia, and the more compromized the agility - the unwillingness to change directions.









Hypothetically, they could combine PHEV hybrid with a big lion battery under the trunk (like 330e & C350e) and big powerful electric motors to a 7ES 3.5 TT AWD, and this would hypothetically give 0-60 acceleration under 4.0 seconds!
However once again, the power hybrid battery under the trunk will result in explosive acceleration, but because the heavy mass of the engine and the heavy mass of the battery pack is far from the yaw center, the polar moment of inertia will be dramatically increased such that the agility will be compromized - unless there is a battery energy density breakthrough like solid state batteries.
Below are pics of 330e & C350e PHEV hybrids with big battery, and big electric motors for fast acceleration and long electric vehicle only range.