DanZ

Howdy folks,

I just joined. Need advice from knowledgeable folks in this forum:
1. I drive a 20 year old Corolla and it is time for me to upgrade. I test drive ES350 and really liked how it handles. As you can imagine, it was quite a jump for me coming from Corolla. But I have driven my Dad's BMW 3 series in the past and wanted a car similar to it once I graduated and settled.
2. I prefer to buy a CPO that is 2 or 3 years old. I only need a base model, since that is all I can afford. So, no NAV or BSM or PCS or ML or any other package for me. Just the base model would be fine.
3. I saved up about half in cash contribution and the rest will be a loan.
4. I looked up local dealers in SoCal and found a few CPO in the range of $27 to $29 for the base model that ranged from ~37K miles to ~20K miles (model year was 2015). Is that a good price for a base model? All were single owners and lease returns. The tire tread in one that I saw and drove was around 6/32 to 7/32 and brakes were at 8 mm according to CPO inspection. This specific one had ~20K miles (2015 model year), lease return and was $29.3K.
5. During test drive of a 2017 ES350, I really liked how it handles and rides. And the interior was pretty impressive. However, the brakes felt spongy compared to BMW 3 series (but not compared to my old clunker Corolla that has about 208K miles).
6. I have learned basic maintenance from my Dad and as a result I was able to maintain Corolla myself (except for big items of which there was only one during the 20 year period: catalytic converter at about 160K miles). Is ES350 amenable to maintenance or does one need Lexus specific code readers?
7. I also looked into a non-CPO ES350 but do not feel comfortable sinking my savings into a car that might have questionable history. That is my reasoning to go after the CPO. I plan to keep it for next 20 years.
Thank you very much for your assistance and suggestions.

dreyfus

I can't speak to the price in SoCal, but the ES350 is a great car. Basic maintenance is pretty straightforward - oil, filters, brakes, plugs, etc. are all easy if you have basic mechanical skills. But the technology has definitely advanced since your 20-year-old Corolla.
You don't need Lexus-specific code readers, but there are some user-settings like door functions that require the dealer to set with Lexus equipment. The owner's manual or dealer can explain.
A CPO shouldn't have spongy brakes. However, know that this is in no way a sporty car, it's a comfort ride with decent punch, but a canyon carver it is not.
Welcome to CL.

yeskay

if you plan to keep for another 20 yrs you should look for a fully loaded spec not a basic model. like your corolla these engines are built to last. so do not lean on low miles.

Freds430

I agree with yeskay. If you are keeping this car for even ten years with interest rates where they are get nav and blind spot monitoring. J D Power has ranked Lexus #1 in reliability for six straight years. Lexus is the third least to maintain behind it's cousins Toyota and Scion. BMW is the most expensive.

I have used this maintenance routine for a million miles with zero problems. Every 10,000 miles an oil change and tire rotation is needed. At the Lexus dealership this should be less than $100. Every 30,000 miles the brake fluid needs to be changed and again about $100. Every 20,000 miles change the air and cabin filters. This combined takes five minutes and the air filter can be bought on line at Lexus Parts World for $18. The cabin air filter can be bought at Walmart for $18, It is the Fram Fresh Breeze #10285 with carbon and baking soda to filter the air. Wiper blade inserts again can be bought at Lexus Parts World for $20 for both refills and takes five minutes to replace. You are done until 100,000 miles. At Lexus Parts World use cl5 in the promo code for 10% discount. If you go in and ask for the 10,000, 20,000 30,000 maintenance you will be paying big bucks for a lot more items you do not need checked and inspected. Once a year replace the key fob battery cr2032. Keep receipts for everything. I take my oil filter and 5 quart jug of Mobil 1 purchased at Walmart for $24 to my local Toyota dealer and they charge me $20 labor.

http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-c...ver-1781639773

BradTank

I wouldn't get hung up on the CPO stuff, the idea they really go through those with fine tooth comb is mostly a fiction. They can really slap that on about anything as long as it doesn't have an accident history on CarFax.

My experience trying to buy used at a Lexus dealerships was I just felt it was too much of a premium and they weren't even willing to entertain reasonable offers. Of all places, I ended up getting my ES at a new Volvo dealership on a model that was still under factory warranty for about $7,000 less than the Lexus dealer wanted.

If $30k buys a 2 year old base ES 350 at a dealership, I would just buy new at that point for like $36k, but everyone is different.

lesz

The $27000 to $29000 range is about right for a 2015 CPO base ES without navigation. That said, with the discounting from MSRP and rebates currently available, you should be able to buy a brand new 2017 non-navigation ES for somewhere around $35000 right now, and I think that is a much better buy.

I agree 100%.

One or two year old CPO vehicles are generally about the worst buys available for an ES (or other Lexus model). The supply of those 1-2 year old cars is small because not that many have yet been traded in or returned from leases, and the demand for them is high. That combination translates into high prices. And, when the dealer adds about $2500 for the CPO inspection and warranty, the prices of those 1-2 year old CPO vehicles are closer to new car prices than one would be likely to imagine at first. For a few thousand dollars more, you can get a brand new car with a brand new factory warranty, and it will be one for which you know you won't need to be spending additional money on things like brakes and tires for a while. Minimum CPO standards only require that about 1/3 of usable tire tread and brake pads be left. That means that many CPO buyers will end up spending a sizeable amount of money for tires and brakes within a year or so of their purchase.

Also, as pointed out in the post that I quoted, many think of a CPO car as being "almost like new", but that is not reality. Most of the items in the CPO inspection are things that any of us could check in less than an hour. That list includes things like making sure the car starts, making sure that all of the lights work, making sure that the power windows work, etc., and, since most accidents don't ever show up on the data bases like those of Car Fax, it is fairly common for CPO vehicles to have had some paint or body work, even if it wasn't major work.

For me, the bottom like would be that I would seriously try to find a way to spend a few thousand dollars more for a new ES as an alternative to buying a 2 year old CPO ES.

DanZ

Thank you all. Your comments and experience are very helpful to me. I can do the most maintenance myself unless an unknown lexus specific code pops up which a regular obd2 code reader cannot read. From what i am reading here, I probably do not expect such codes on es since it is well built. I did look at the 161 point certification list, and yes almost everything can be done easily. I will look into the possibility of new vs cpo used vs non-cpo used. I really appreciate everyone's input.

I am still thinking about the spongy brakes I felt on a new 2017 es model compared to bmw 3 series. It might just be a lexus design since bmw makes it rotors soft that are supposed to be replaced at the same time as brake pads. Pardon me for asking the following:
1. Why is nav so essential? In my situation I just put my iphone into the $3 holder that goes into the vent and use waze (I work for the company whose search engine you probably use everyday and waze is the best navigator out there)
2. Why are bsm, pcs, park assist so essential? To me they are a rip off. All it takes is a mm wave radar which is really cheap. I know this very well since I am working on a self driving system, where the hardest part is software not the radar.
I do not mean to imply that people should not have them but to me their utility is not worth the cost. Does not take much to look over the shoulder for blind spot. Even if I have bsm, my reflexes are already built in to look over the shoulder.

BradTank

I tend to not be much into the gadgets either, especially considering how much it can push up the price.

Navigation is largely useless to me. And they put so many restrictions on when you can access it for legal reasons and the OS is clunky. It was a really cool upgrade 14 years ago, but the car companies still charge big bucks for it. Navigation should be like a $100 option or just standard. But some people really like it integrated with the car and will pay for it. Even the updates are a huge rip off imo. I've had 3 Lexus with it and its just an ignored option that sits in the background.

One feature I will say I thought was silly at first but came to like was a rear backup camera. I have found that really useful.

DanZ

Brad: I am glad to hear I am not the only one. Yes, the OS on NAV reminds of windows 3.1 (ugghhh).
Yes, I agree, the rear backup camera is useful and from what I understand it is standard from few years ago.

newyerker

you def sound like you know what you want. yeah i def do not trust the bsm and def do look over everytime and will continie to do so. the lda also, it only bothers when turned on so that is def always off, and i rarely cruise control to take advantage of the advanced cc. and i dont think anyone rly uses the built in nav either. the front cupholder actually works perfectly as a phone mount, u dont need anything else. i just use my phone there and works perfectly.

DanZ

Newyerker: What a coincidence? I was just thinking whether the cup holder in ES can possibly hold my phone. Since I don't have an ES yet, I was just looking around to see whether that might work. Thanks for answering before I even asked (you must have extra sensory perception!!)