losiglow

I know there's been plenty of discussion about the Mark Levinson system in the 7th gen ES. Some like it. Some don't. I personally was underwhelmed when I first heard it. Highs and Mids were ok, but not great. Bass was embarrassing . After many hours and research, getting all new music in FLAC format, fidgeting with several combinations on the equalizer and surround options, and still being underwhelmed, I decided to take action. What I determined they did right was speaker placement and the amplifier. I mention the amplifier because it appears it puts out pretty decent power. What they did wrong was speaker quality. Still, it's a good baseline to work with.

Slightly off subject but my understanding, based on various articles on the interwebs, is that Lexus purchased the Mark Levinson name but that the actual system and components no longer necessarily reflect the same level of quality and innovation standards that Mark Levinson originally had. This made sense when I dug into the system and started tearing things apart.

Also, Lexus claims that this system has 17 speakers. That's the same as claiming that a 3-way 6x9 loudspeaker is somehow three speakers. Yes, it's a 3-way speaker but by even the most basic audiophile standard, this isn't "3 speakers" It's a single 3-way speaker. They state 17 speakers because there are 7 smaller speakers that are 2-way. So they consider that to be 14 total. Add the two woofers in the front doors and rear subwoofer and you have "17" speakers. Yeah................no. That's 10. Just because 7 of them are 2-way doesn't make it 14. I suppose that's just arguing definitions but that's not the way I see it.

Either way, 10 is more than enough. I started with the rear subwoofer. Then the front door woofers. At this point, I've now replaced all 10 (or 17 if you go by Lexus' definition of a speaker ):

The first most obvious improvement was the rear subwoofer. This thing is a case study in sadness . I should have taken a side profile shot. This thing is about 2 inches thick. I think it uses as similar sized magnet to those used for those letters we used to stick to the refrigerator as kids. When I removed it, I literally couldn't tell it was disconnected. It does nearly nothing to contribute to the overall sound of the ML system.



I figured go big or go home so I put in a JL Audio 10W6v3-D4 sub. I don't think I knew what I was getting into with this. It shakes your guts. I still have a good deal of rattle-finding to do as the rear deck was clearly designed for the sad little thing they originally had mounted there. But that's a work in progress.



And yes, it hangs down a fair bit but doesn't impede the trunk springs and doesn't get in the way of cargo. Not too noticeable when looking into the trunk at a "normal" angle. Here's a pic I took before I removed the JL sub from the box (I purchased a used HO110-W6v3 locally, which is the 10W6v3-D4 in an enclosure, and removed the sub after deciding it took up too much space). So the enclosure is no longer there. I only have took this pic to post on local classifieds to sell the enclosure itself to give an idea of size.




The factory signal actually provided a good amount of power but I had a 500W Alpine mono-amp that I wired up for good measure. Sounds much cleaner with that in line.

Two front door woofer replaced with Kicker 47KSC6904. The reviews on these say they put out pretty good bass for 6x9's. And since only low frequencies are sent from the amp, low end is the only consideration. No need to get 3 or 4-way speakers here. Compared to the flimsy things I removed that they call speakers, they sound much better and put out much louder and cleaner bass. I'm not a speaker expert but the problem with these stock woofers seems to be a very shallow voice coil or woofer "travel". If you can't move any air, you can't make any bass. The Kickers (and nearly any aftermarket 6x9") has far more than these things. Not to mention materials, which are all paper and foam with the stockies.

These are the sad looking things I pulled out. Weighed less than 1lb each.



Seven mid/tweeter speakers - 2 in the rear doors, 2 in the front doors, 2 in the front corners and 1 center. I wasn't planning on removing these. They sounded alright. I also didn't want to spend $80 x 4 to get the number of speakers I needed. However, I found a listing on eBay selling a bunch of sets of the same Kicker KS line as the 6x9's above. But 3.5's in this case. Instead of $80 each, he was selling them for only $33 each. I did the "best offer" option and offered $120 for 4 sets ($30 each). He accepted! So rather than $320 for four sets, I forked out $120. I felt that was worth the gamble. If they sucked or the difference wasn't that noticeable compared to stock, I'd send them back. However, once installed, the contrast in quality was obvious.







I didn't expect the difference to be as dramatic as it was. It nearly brought a tear to my eye. It was like going from AM to XM radio. Or tape to CD. Very significant difference. The only problem is that the Kicker KS's are a 4 Ohm speaker whereas stock is probably 2 or 3 because the volume isn't as high. I might experiment and remove the crossovers and see if that does anything. But I don't listen to music full blast. My hearing has already taken a hit at 40+ years old due to too many concerts and aftermarket systems in my other cars. So a reasonable volume is just fine.

Lastly, to add some high frequency bass, I put a JBL BassPro Nano under each front seat. These don't put out anywhere close to the low frequencies that the JL W6 does, but they hit the high frequency bass pretty hard. And it's a nice feeling to have your butt massaged. I had these from my 2017 ES so it was just a matter of finding which leads from the factory amp were for the rear deck sub. And supplying power and remote. Sorry, no pictures. But if anyone wants a pic of the connections or wants to know which wires to tap from, let me know and I can post one.

At this point my only task left is continuing to hunt down odd rattles for the rear deck. Otherwise, this is the best sounding system I've ever had. Not as much bass as my younger days when I had dual 14" subs with 1000W+ amps. But I'm not into that anymore. While the bass is more subtle, it's also much cleaner and deeper than just throwing a huge box in the back. I'm ashamed at Lexus for a severely lackluster system but considering the rest of the car is nearly perfect, that's ok. I can't really blame them since from a business perspective, forking out an additional $300-$500 (which is what I think cost would be if Lexus actually put in good quality speakers) isn't really a wise business decision. When considering the demographic of people driving the ES, I doubt that I'm the mainstream. It's probably a lot of old guys listening to Grateful Deal or Pink Floyd at moderate levels. Or classical. I dunno. But I grew up in the 90's with grunge, ska and alternative. That old school rap like Dre and Snoop. All of that sounds studio quality now (although the rap will still require some sound deadening since that sub far outclasses the rear deck's anti-rattling capability )

LeX2K

I'm baffled why ML put together such a poorly balanced system. Obviously amplification is not the issue, they combined it with speakers that are a poor match. Very odd. I have the same 3.5" Kicker's I'm surprised how good they are. With the good experience I'll consider the same line in other sizes.

I also have a set of these
They beat the Kicker's by as small margin. Best 3.5" I've tried so far the design makes the speaker cone larger than other 3.5"-ers.

Mark Levinson is not owned by Lexus they are a subsidiary of Harmon, which is owned by Samsun. Mark Levinson the person has nothing to do with the products in fact he sued to get his name removed and lost.

E46CT

Nice work. I'd cut off all those sharp screw ends though. wouldn't want to be rummaging around in the trunk and have one of those gouge me.

scubapr

Nice work @losiglow ! At what volume did you usually listen before the upgrade and after? Do the 10W6v3-D4 with the default signal is good enough or really under-powered? I'll prefer to not add an additional amplifier.

I understand you completely. Having a dedicated Hi End Sound / Home Theater, I have learn to appreciate music and lossless formats on a new level. Even my basic computer desktop Audioengine A2+ paired with a SVS PB 1000 sounds 10x better that my ML. Don't get me wrong, the ML system it's really good for a car audio; and compared to the base system. But changing the speakers is now on my "next to do list". Thanks!

F3Woody

This is one very interesting, informative and entertaining post. Thanks for putting this out.

cbus

@losiglow any modifications needed on the rear deck aside from additional holes for mounting screws? Looking at factory sub alternatives as well, but I'm not going to go full 10W6.

losiglow

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this experience. And yeah, that's more or less what I read about ML. I couldn't recall the exact situation but understood that it wasn't the same animal as with Mark himself was running things back in the day.

I looked at quite a few 3.5's but it's always difficult to pick the "best" based on specs. Crutchfield has the listen and compare option which helped a bit. I liked that the Kickers has a silk dome tweeter, which is supposed to put out a softer, richer sound than a textile or PEI tweeter. I had Infinity Reference's all around in my 2017 and they were LOUD but almost too much so. They would hurt my inner ears after a while. The Kickers are "softer" for a lack of better words.

And I'm certainly not hating on the ML system. It's really good for stock. And on second thought, an upcharge of $1080 (which is what Lexus charges to upgrade from the base system to the ML system if you're getting an lux or ultra-lux trim) isn't that bad. For some reason I thought it was a lot more than that. I purchased mine used so I never saw dollar for dollar, the actual upcharges for extras. Assuming the base system in the 7th gen ES is similar to my 6th gen, I think $1080 is a reasonable upcharge for the ML.

Thanks. I'll get to that eventually. I used sheet metal screws along with two layers of insulation to make sure the sub was very well secured. That was after initially mounting it with lighter duty screws and one layer of insulation. But after hearing it, I realized I'd better make sure that thing is tight as a dish because it put out considerably more than I expected


I'd say my normal "high" volume was 40-45. Now it's 50-55. So quite a significant change with different ohm speakers. There are a few songs I can max out and it still leaves me wanting. That's very few however. And I've sort of viewed it as a check to keep me from further ruining my hearing . But I'll definitely experiment with removing the in-line crossovers that Kicker provided. Maybe just for the front speakers. It wouldn't be too much work to tear the front speakers back out and switch up the wiring. I'm happy for now though. And don't want to dig back into things anytime real soon. My other concern is that it sounds like a lot of guys have damaged these KS line Kickers by adding too much power, or running them without crossovers. There are several complaints on Crutchfield of them "popping" after a while. Again, likely too much power or not using the crossovers. The stock speakers themselves come with a small crossover. Or at least that's what it looks like. There's clearly a capacitor and what looks like an inductor and resistor. So if even the stock speakers have a crossover installed, it makes me hesitant to remove the ones that came with the Kickers.

As far as running with the stock amp signal vs aftermarket - that's kind of subjective. I thought it was fine with stock. But that's because I didn't expect a ton of bass from it. Considering that it's an infinite baffle sub at that point (no longer in an enclosure), I knew it wouldn't hit as hard. I only wired up the amp because I had it available. The difference was significant with the amp probably due to the 10W6's power limit. If it was an entry level sub, the difference may not have been as significant. Even if I had to run it without the amp for some reason, it wouldn't be a deal killer. It would just be a more subtle bass addition whereas with the amp, it has the capability to hit harder if you want it to. I have the Alpine dial that can adjust the output from the amp. When it's low, I can't tell much of a difference between having the amp vs a direct signal from the stock amp. When it's turned up high, that's when the difference is more obvious.

No. It slides right in. No cutting, no clearance issues with the top or bottom of the deck. I was worried I may not be able to have clearance between the rear window and rear deck opening but thank my lucky stars, there was enough room to squeeze it in The holes don't match up perfectly so I had to make some of my own. Since the rear deck isn't especially thick, I think that's the best way to go to get the best mounting strength. Good thing is, there aren't any modifications that burns your bridges with reinstalling the old sub, which I will inevitably do when I sell the car. I'll likely leave all the other speakers in but the JL will be coming out at that point.

And I'd agree that a 10W6 is probably overkill. My initial plan was a 10W1 but I found that HO110-W6v3 locally for $350 and couldn't pass it up. The 10W6 alone MSRP's for $800. I think something much more tame would be plenty good.

LeX2K

It's a scam, using a famed engineers name that has nothing to do with the products.
And almost everything on Crutchfield is highly rated. As for specs I've said this many times they are mostly meaningless we have "800 watt" amps out there that sound terrible. The famed McIntosh MC2300 amp is rated at 300 watts/channel. JBL's I linked to are rated at 25 watts they have a version that is higher but I like the efficiency of the lower wattage ones.
Infinity Reference is one of the worst speakers I've ever heard, shrill is the word that comes to mind. The Kicker's are nice they sound neutral I don't hear the speakers I hear the material feeding them. Have to be honest at one time I dismissed Kicker for whatever reason, I was wrong.
But how does a ML system like yours get released? Only way I can see this happening is bean counters said no to proper speakers I highly doubt the engineers said yea no problem those speakers are good enough.

cbus

I'm thinking either a Stereo Integrity or Dayton low-profile 10 for myself - on that topic, is your D4 sub wired at 8ohm or 2ohm? I imagine the factory amp wouldn't be super happy running at 2, but who knows.

losiglow

I agree. "Shrill" is a perfect descriptor for them. I tried them on my '17 based on the recommendation from a coworker but should have done a bit more homework. Much happier with the Kickers this time around.

losiglow

2ohm. Is there a benefit to running it at 8ohm? This shows my ignorance a bit. I know that ohms are a measure of resistance and that the higher the ohm, the "quieter" the speaker will be with the same amount of power due to increased resistance. However, I haven't done a lot of research into the benefits or drawbacks of going with higher or lower ohm speakers, or configuring them as such.

Edit: Ohm = Impedance, not resistance Again, my bad.

grp52

A general rule of electronics is for maximum power transfer from the power source to the load the load impedance must match the source impedance. For audio systems that means speaker impedance must match the amplifier output impedance for maximum power transfer.

Car audio systems are usually designed for 4 ohm impedances; however, I've got a nagging thought that I read something somewhere that the ES Mark Levinson has a deviation or two from the usual auto speaker impedances and/or wiring.

losiglow

My Alpine amp is 2ohm, same as the sub is wired for. Input into the amp is from the ML amp, which is likely different. But I don't think impedance of the input signal is critical.

july1988

Wow hat off to you guys doing this. I'm alway wondering do you guys love music or just love to have better speakers haha
My ears can't tell no different ***** on any music from any source, if my volume is 40+

Vertdafert

The ML in the LC500 is also pretty pathetic.. Really really bad. The ML is my ES350 actually sounds better than the one did in my LC500.


Good to know your upgrade went well.
I probably would have disconnected the rear deck sub and kept the JL sub in the box pressed against the back seat just to avoid any rattles that set up offered but probably would end up rattling in all the same places regardless.

Good job.