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2013 ES350 40K Miles what is wrong with this transmission!
Hey guys, I recently acquired my 2013 ES350 one owner at 32k miles. I've owned the car and drove it for about a year and took excellent care of all the maintenance myself including changing the oil every 5k miles and changed the automatic transmission fluid (drain and fill) with Amsoil Synthetic ATF. Today, I went a did some DoorDashing as a side hustle. I live in Texas and today in Fort Worth it was about 105 degrees. Anyways, out of curiosity I logged my transmission fluid temperature (image attached) and HOLY smokes this thing is running hot. CONSISTENT 218-220F in normal driving conditions, not even flooring it or driving it like a mad man. Looks like the temperature started to slope back down as the temperature outside and the sun was going down around 98-95 degrees ambient temperature the ATF fluid looks liked it dipped into the 200-210 range.
I'm still not comfortable with those numbers! I'm trying to figure out if I didn't drain and fill enough of the old fluid out, or something is going on with the transmission. I'm thinking I do another drain and fill and see if the test improves, if not, I might have to look into installing an aftermarket transmission cooler. Car also likes to hiccup into the DRIVE gear if I put the car in drive and hit the gas pedal quickly like if I'm trying to back up and get out of the way of another car and have to quickly put it into drive and get out of the way, also this car really likes to downshift weirdly as well. I'm just not feeling comfortable about this car considering it only has 40k MILES!!
Please if anyone has found a solution or has found results with testing please let me know as I'm trying to make this car last a really long time, otherwise I may have to look at other options if there is no solutions as my experience with the car so far has been reliable but there's a lot of weird things going on, and I don't want this car to be a liability in the future. I'm hearing mixed opinions on the 6 speed transmissions some having amazing experiences, and some folks not even making it to the 120k mile mark before the transmission takes a dump.
Any feedback at this point would be much appreciated thank you so much!
Which Amsoil specifically? I'm sure you know the ATF level must be correct within a very small margin. Since the ATF goes through a coolant heat exchanger maybe those temps are normal?
Which Amsoil specifically? I'm sure you know the ATF level must be correct within a very small margin. Since the ATF goes through a coolant heat exchanger maybe those temps are normal?
Yes, and I'm very well aware of the correct procedure from Lexus as I did the procedure correctly per Lexus official instructions on their tech stream software. The adjustment temperature for my car is between 104-113F. I've done the entire drain and fill procedure correctly and I made sure of it as I'm very "to the book" kind of guy when it comes to things like this. The specific ATF fluid I used is Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid from Amsoil which is SPEC'd for Toyota WS fluid.
Which Amsoil specifically? I'm sure you know the ATF level must be correct within a very small margin. Since the ATF goes through a coolant heat exchanger maybe those temps are normal?
I would first attempt another drain and fill. How are you measuring the temps? I use a scangauge II to monitor everything. After another drain and fill see what it does. I did post in that thread about my cooler. It made a huge difference. I never saw the temps you are seeing, but I do know Texas heat and what stop and go can do to the trans.
One more thing. I believe there are 2 separate temp sensors on the ES 350. One is at the trans pan and one is at the torque converter. The torque converter temps are always hotter and the temps will be very erratic vs the pan temp. Make sure you are monitoring the pans temperature.
I will not have time to dis-assemble anything for pics or video. All of my lines are rubber transmission lines routed inside a radiator hose for protection. Double clamped at the ends. Once you look at the diagram I posted, remove the battery and tray, air cleaner, and plastic aero piece in front of the radiator you will see everything. I ran the lines around the driver side of the radiator support to the cooler.
Those temps are entirely normal for low speed driving in those temps (105F). I am not sure what you are upset about. If someone is telling you to do something/make changes - they do not understand transmissions and how they work.
Install a downstream cooler - which will not help a lot in fact in those conditions. It will lower your temps when 40mph or above, but not in town. And it will lower temps SLOWLY if already elevated from low-speed, stop-and-go driving. It takes about 1/2 hour of highway driving to get rid of the heat-soaking from stop-go driving. Can’t get around thermal physics. It’s a thing.
The waste heat of an automatic transmission runs about 115F IME. Meaning, even at 0F, the friction of the system generates that, it will vary a little bitbased on trans fluid volume, speed, etc. But that’s a bottom line. At 32F, internal trans temps ill be 115F. At 15F, internal temps will be about 115F. At 0F outside, internal trans temp will be 115F. I’ve tested this.
I have an SUV with an internal temp sensor installed in the mid-body of the trans. It is a true internal reading, not at the radiator like most OBDII readings. Even with an oversized cooler, (sized for a Class B motorhome, not my 3.5l V6), it reads a consistent 75+ over ambient on the highway, and ambient +100F in town. That’s with an aux cooler. Also, where are your temps taken from, the body, or the radiator ( which is where most, but not all, OBDII AT temps are taken from)?
There is nothing apparently wrong with your temps, given a) usage b) system configuration.
I take AT temps seriously - even put them on my A-pillar. Temp on this gauge is 145F, I’m cruising over 45mph. Outside temp is 70F - guaranteed almost. The temp relationship is that predictable. This vehicle has an aux cooler installed downstream. Yours will be higher - but it’s that predictable/correlated.
Pavement in hot temps is about 120F, if you are in slow speed traffic you will run 220F. No way around that. Change your fluid more often. Or move north.
Those temps are entirely normal for low speed driving in those temps (105F). I am not sure what you are upset about. If someone is telling you to do something/make changes - they do not understand transmissions and how they work.
Install a downstream cooler - which will not help a lot in fact in those conditions. It will lower your temps when 40mph or above, but not in town. And it will lower temps SLOWLY if already elevated from low-speed, stop-and-go driving. It takes about 1/2 hour of highway driving to get rid of the heat-soaking from stop-go driving. Can’t get around thermal physics. It’s a thing.
Not trying to debate, but I have the same vehicle in the same heat. My transmission temps never reached 220, ever (not at the pan reading). I have seen a 20 to 30 degree temperature drop since installing my trans cooler, both in the city and highway driving. my temps used to top out in the 205 range when over 100 degrees outside both in the city and on the highway. Now they average 165 and top at 185 when hot and pushing it.
I would first attempt another drain and fill. How are you measuring the temps? I use a scangauge II to monitor everything. After another drain and fill see what it does. I did post in that thread about my cooler. It made a huge difference. I never saw the temps you are seeing, but I do know Texas heat and what stop and go can do to the trans.
One more thing. I believe there are 2 separate temp sensors on the ES 350. One is at the trans pan and one is at the torque converter. The torque converter temps are always hotter and the temps will be very erratic vs the pan temp. Make sure you are monitoring the pans temperature.
I will not have time to dis-assemble anything for pics or video. All of my lines are rubber transmission lines routed inside a radiator hose for protection. Double clamped at the ends. Once you look at the diagram I posted, remove the battery and tray, air cleaner, and plastic aero piece in front of the radiator you will see everything. I ran the lines around the driver side of the radiator support to the cooler.
Sorry for the late reply. I'm using my OBD2 scan tool that can read ATF temperatures. I might just go ahead with the drain and fill again just to see what happens, but today was a little cooler of a day and the transmission was staying cooler around the 200-205F range today. Also, yes, I am monitoring the pans temperature as I can't find any information on reading the torque converter temperature in our cars, I can't find a source that can verify if there is an available sensor we can read but the one I'm monitoring is the pan temp.
My next question would be how you actually ran the lines from the cooler, to the actual heat exchange. I saw the picture on the previous thread that you took the hose marked with "X" and then attached the two cooler lines to 2 points that you marked with arrows. I'll attach the photo to this reply. However, I'm just wondering how you connected the cooler to the heat exchange and transmission. When looking at the cooler itself there is a top outlet and bottom outlet. I'll try to draw a diagram to show you what I mean I'm just trying to see what outlet you connected to what part of the actual heat exchanger.
Those temps are entirely normal for low speed driving in those temps (105F). I am not sure what you are upset about. If someone is telling you to do something/make changes - they do not understand transmissions and how they work.
Install a downstream cooler - which will not help a lot in fact in those conditions. It will lower your temps when 40mph or above, but not in town. And it will lower temps SLOWLY if already elevated from low-speed, stop-and-go driving. It takes about 1/2 hour of highway driving to get rid of the heat-soaking from stop-go driving. Can’t get around thermal physics. It’s a thing.
The waste heat of an automatic transmission runs about 115F IME. Meaning, even at 0F, the friction of the system generates that, it will vary a little bitbased on trans fluid volume, speed, etc. But that’s a bottom line. At 32F, internal trans temps ill be 115F. At 15F, internal temps will be about 115F. At 0F outside, internal trans temp will be 115F. I’ve tested this.
I have an SUV with an internal temp sensor installed in the mid-body of the trans. It is a true internal reading, not at the radiator like most OBDII readings. Even with an oversized cooler, (sized for a Class B motorhome, not my 3.5l V6), it reads a consistent 75+ over ambient on the highway, and ambient +100F in town. That’s with an aux cooler. Also, where are your temps taken from, the body, or the radiator ( which is where most, but not all, OBDII AT temps are taken from)?
There is nothing apparently wrong with your temps, given a) usage b) system configuration.
I take AT temps seriously - even put them on my A-pillar. Temp on this gauge is 145F, I’m cruising over 45mph. Outside temp is 70F - guaranteed almost. The temp relationship is that predictable. This vehicle has an aux cooler installed downstream. Yours will be higher - but it’s that predictable/correlated.
Pavement in hot temps is about 120F, if you are in slow speed traffic you will run 220F. No way around that. Change your fluid more often. Or move north.
I completely understand what you are saying, and yes technically it is falling within the 175-225F quote on quote "normal" operating temperature range and yes it definitely is hot as hell outside in Texas with the ambient temperature, but I've been seeing a lot of these Lexus transmissions, especially 6th generation ES350 with the 6speeds COMMONLY going out around the 130k mile mark because I personally think these transmissions run on the hotter end, and overtime that would just wear out the transmission, I think Toyota is fully neglecting transmission care emphasis to begin with, considering they push the "lifetime fluid" gimmick... along with having a pretty below average transmission cooling system (in my opinion) but who am I right? just some random dude on the internet seeking answers, I'm not engineer, but I'm just going about based on my experiences and solving issues as I go. I understand a transmission cooler won't "solve" transmission problems, but they can help prevent further problems down the line. Like I said, Toyota likes to push the "lifetime fluid" and without trying to make this a fluid debate (lord forbid), I understand most common folks who aren't car savvy, don't change their fluid, on top of this 6speed likes to be on the higher end of the temp scale with this generation of ES, I think this is why most folks are seeing transmission failures around that 130k mark and I for one don't want to be joining those guys. It's not that someone told me to add a transmission cooler, I'm very OCD about maintaining things as long as possible, and heat is one of the biggest issues with failing transmissions, so it got me really thinking about keeping this transmission cool and change the fluid and respective intervals. I'd say yeah maybe if you didn't live in such a hot state, you'd be fine, but the South gets so dam hot and clearly the transmission cooling system is barely hanging on by a thread trying to sustain these ambient temperatures.
Not trying to debate, but I have the same vehicle in the same heat. My transmission temps never reached 220, ever (not at the pan reading). I have seen a 20 to 30 degree temperature drop since installing my trans cooler, both in the city and highway driving. my temps used to top out in the 205 range when over 100 degrees outside both in the city and on the highway. Now they average 165 and top at 185 when hot and pushing it.
Your results are the reason I want the cooler, anyone who lives in the brutal hot states should definitely consider installing one, or carefully monitor their temps. I understand an ATF temp reading of 220F is still considered in the quote on quote "normal" operating temperatures, but it's really at the borderline of running just a little too hot, and knowing it stays hot for a long period of time down in the South, I just can't see being at those temperatures for a long time does anything good for the transmission long term other than cutting the lifespan in half.
Your results are the reason I want the cooler, anyone who lives in the brutal hot states should definitely consider installing one, or carefully monitor their temps. I understand an ATF temp reading of 220F is still considered in the quote on quote "normal" operating temperatures, but it's really at the borderline of running just a little too hot, and knowing it stays hot for a long period of time down in the South, I just can't see being at those temperatures for a long time does anything good for the transmission long term other than cutting the lifespan in half.
Very few people who drive a typical car will monitor trans temps. I have been doing it for 45 years because I also drive hot rods and have 2 trucks that I pull with. I monitor the temps on my wife's 4Runner also. Her 4Runner has never been above 190 degrees and usually stays around 165. Both of my trucks stay around 150-170 unless I am towing. I bought the scangauge II for the 4runner and ES350 because I like all of the data it provides in real time. There are other great ones out there, but I am old school and not a phone app guy.
I will look today to verify, but I am almost positive that the green lines are the way I did it. I will get back to you. On the Hayden cooler it does not matter which inlet/outlet you hook to as it is not directional, so either Red or Green will work.
Edit - Mine is run like the green lines, but either way will work. I chose to run the cooler "after" the heat exchanger ( fluid flow is transmission-heat exchanger-cooler-transmission) because that is how my trucks are routed from the factory. If someone wanted to run the cooler before the heat exchanger they would replace the other small factory transmission line.
Very few people who drive a typical car will monitor trans temps. I have been doing it for 45 years because I also drive hot rods and have 2 trucks that I pull with. I monitor the temps on my wife's 4Runner also. Her 4Runner has never been above 190 degrees and usually stays around 165. Both of my trucks stay around 150-170 unless I am towing. I bought the scangauge II for the 4runner and ES350 because I like all of the data it provides in real time. There are other great ones out there, but I am old school and not a phone app guy.
I will look today to verify, but I am almost positive that the green lines are the way I did it. I will get back to you. On the Hayden cooler it does not matter which inlet/outlet you hook to as it is not directional, so either Red or Green will work.
Edit - Mine is run like the green lines, but either way will work. I chose to run the cooler "after" the heat exchanger ( fluid flow is transmission-heat exchanger-cooler-transmission) because that is how my trucks are routed from the factory. If someone wanted to run the cooler before the heat exchanger they would replace the other small factory transmission line.
Yeah, most typical drivers don't monitor their transmission temps and it's a shame to be honest. In my opinion checking the transmission temperature should be as equally as important as checking the coolant gauge on the dash occasionally. Engine and transmission are the biggest and primary components, definitely have to keep them cool enough under operations. I think more people should occasionally monitor and check things out every once in a while, I know some manufacturers will even put temp readings on the dashboard settings for drivers to view.
Also, thank you for confirming your configurations. I'm thinking about doing the install sometime in the future. The hottest days for us are slowly coming to an end soon before we start phasing into the cooler months, but it's definitely warmer in Texas than it is cold, so I think doing the install will be beneficial for the long summers. I'm also not worried about our ambient temperature being "too cold" for a transmission cooler because it doesn't get that cold here in Texas. However, if I still lived up north in Wisconsin, it would probably be a completely different ballgame lol
08-23-24, 06:25 PM
2013 ES350 40K Miles what is wrong with this transmission!
