Non-ML Audio upgrade : DSP Tuning question
08-21-22, 06:28 PM
#1
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Non-ML Audio upgrade : DSP Tuning question
I have scoured through the entire forums and watched a whole bunch of videos but cannot find answers. I am hoping someone here knows the answer.
Question:
Subwoofer seems to be missing a lot of bass. Do you know what are the factory default audio frequencies applied at each speaker?
Background:
I have a 3IS non-ML audio system with Navigation. I replaced the factory speakers/amp (except the sub and center speaker). I am using a JBL4086 DSP/AMP. I used a PAC APH-TY02 harness to keep everything from factory untapped. The DSP us using factory Amp out as input.
Setup:
The JBL DSP takes 6 inputs and then allows you to mix them for 8 outputs. Here is how my mapping looks:
Input1 Front Left Door Woofer -> DSP -> Front Left Door output and 50% also goes to Center channel and Subwoofer (freq filter applied)
Input2 Front Right Door Woofer -> DSP -> Front Right Door output and 50% also goes to Center channel and Subwoofer (freq filter applied)
Input3 Front Left Dash -> DSP -> Front Left Dash output (mixed with doors and freq filters applied)
Input4 Front Right Dash -> DSP -> Front Right Dash output (mixed with doors and freq filters applied)
Input5 Rear Left Door (full) -> DSP -> Rear Left Door output
Input6 Rear Right Door (full) -> DSP -> Rear Right Door output
Note that I have essentially mixed the front door and dash on each side to apply correct frequency filters on the output side. There is definitely audio clarity but I am missing bass.
Is it correct to mix the front door frequencies to sub? Please suggest. Thanks.
Question:
Subwoofer seems to be missing a lot of bass. Do you know what are the factory default audio frequencies applied at each speaker?
Background:
I have a 3IS non-ML audio system with Navigation. I replaced the factory speakers/amp (except the sub and center speaker). I am using a JBL4086 DSP/AMP. I used a PAC APH-TY02 harness to keep everything from factory untapped. The DSP us using factory Amp out as input.
Setup:
The JBL DSP takes 6 inputs and then allows you to mix them for 8 outputs. Here is how my mapping looks:
Input1 Front Left Door Woofer -> DSP -> Front Left Door output and 50% also goes to Center channel and Subwoofer (freq filter applied)
Input2 Front Right Door Woofer -> DSP -> Front Right Door output and 50% also goes to Center channel and Subwoofer (freq filter applied)
Input3 Front Left Dash -> DSP -> Front Left Dash output (mixed with doors and freq filters applied)
Input4 Front Right Dash -> DSP -> Front Right Dash output (mixed with doors and freq filters applied)
Input5 Rear Left Door (full) -> DSP -> Rear Left Door output
Input6 Rear Right Door (full) -> DSP -> Rear Right Door output
Note that I have essentially mixed the front door and dash on each side to apply correct frequency filters on the output side. There is definitely audio clarity but I am missing bass.
Is it correct to mix the front door frequencies to sub? Please suggest. Thanks.
Last edited by Gsr3is; 08-22-22 at 08:02 AM.
08-21-22, 06:49 PM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Is the JBL amp driving the sub?
08-21-22, 09:02 PM
#3
The stock sub is not good at all. I don't think there's anything you can do to make it sound better, you probably have to go aftermarket
08-22-22, 01:20 AM
#4
I have 2021 IS350 non-ML system with Nav and a full aftermarket system. I’m summing the front L/R dash and door woofers along with the sub from the factory amp, which goes into a Mosconi DSP. Then it’s sent to Mosconi Pro amps for the 3-way 6.5” Morel Carbon Elate and 10” Focal Utopia M sub in sealed box. I have 2 DSP presets, one for playing the stock HU and one from a direct source (Astell & Kerns Digital Audio Player via Bluetooth LDAC protocol).
It took a bit of mixing to get the bass levels sounding ok. From what my tuner and I learned is that the factory amp sends a heavily EQ’d signal to the front woofers and sub to protect the amp and speakers from distortion. The amp cuts all frequencies below 50hz to the sub and front door woofers and there is a line level reduction on anything from 50-200 hz as you turn up the volume. The reason why your bass doesn’t sound good even from an aftermarket system when tapping into the factory amp is that the signal simply isn’t clean. You can get something like an AudioControl Epicenter to try to recreate that missing bass but it can only do so much without sounding artificial and boomy.
You already have a DSP, why not just use an outside source to play a pure signal? Also your mapping isn’t ideal. The way you have it setup destroys imaging. I suggest not sending anything to the center channel. All source material is stereo, why not keep it pure? Also, I’d recommend keeping things simple. Mix in the factory dash, front door woofers and sub to get a stereo output, then split it to your 2-way front speakers as an active crossover and assign all frequencies front both mixed channels (80-100hz low pass, no high pass) to your sub.
It took a bit of mixing to get the bass levels sounding ok. From what my tuner and I learned is that the factory amp sends a heavily EQ’d signal to the front woofers and sub to protect the amp and speakers from distortion. The amp cuts all frequencies below 50hz to the sub and front door woofers and there is a line level reduction on anything from 50-200 hz as you turn up the volume. The reason why your bass doesn’t sound good even from an aftermarket system when tapping into the factory amp is that the signal simply isn’t clean. You can get something like an AudioControl Epicenter to try to recreate that missing bass but it can only do so much without sounding artificial and boomy.
You already have a DSP, why not just use an outside source to play a pure signal? Also your mapping isn’t ideal. The way you have it setup destroys imaging. I suggest not sending anything to the center channel. All source material is stereo, why not keep it pure? Also, I’d recommend keeping things simple. Mix in the factory dash, front door woofers and sub to get a stereo output, then split it to your 2-way front speakers as an active crossover and assign all frequencies front both mixed channels (80-100hz low pass, no high pass) to your sub.
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Gsr3is (08-22-22)
08-22-22, 07:18 AM
#5
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Yes, JBL DSPAmp is driving all the speakers. Its just a matter of right mixing.
This is interesting to know. I read earlier forum threads that said the front door and dash combined had the full range but may be not. With the combined door and dash and applying correct crossovers, the audio clarity has improved so much from the factory amp. At this point, I dont want to go down the rabbit hole with trying different things. I will probably leave the center disconnected, and let the stock amp drive the sub as is. It had plenty for my needs for now.
I have 2021 IS350 non-ML system with Nav and a full aftermarket system. I’m summing the front L/R dash and door woofers along with the sub from the factory amp, which goes into a Mosconi DSP. Then it’s sent to Mosconi Pro amps for the 3-way 6.5” Morel Carbon Elate and 10” Focal Utopia M sub in sealed box. I have 2 DSP presets, one for playing the stock HU and one from a direct source (Astell & Kerns Digital Audio Player via Bluetooth LDAC protocol).
It took a bit of mixing to get the bass levels sounding ok. From what my tuner and I learned is that the factory amp sends a heavily EQ’d signal to the front woofers and sub to protect the amp and speakers from distortion. The amp cuts all frequencies below 50hz to the sub and front door woofers and there is a line level reduction on anything from 50-200 hz as you turn up the volume. The reason why your bass doesn’t sound good even from an aftermarket system when tapping into the factory amp is that the signal simply isn’t clean. You can get something like an AudioControl Epicenter to try to recreate that missing bass but it can only do so much without sounding artificial and boomy.
You already have a DSP, why not just use an outside source to play a pure signal? Also your mapping isn’t ideal. The way you have it setup destroys imaging. I suggest not sending anything to the center channel. All source material is stereo, why not keep it pure? Also, I’d recommend keeping things simple. Mix in the factory dash, front door woofers and sub to get a stereo output, then split it to your 2-way front speakers as an active crossover and assign all frequencies front both mixed channels (80-100hz low pass, no high pass) to your sub.
It took a bit of mixing to get the bass levels sounding ok. From what my tuner and I learned is that the factory amp sends a heavily EQ’d signal to the front woofers and sub to protect the amp and speakers from distortion. The amp cuts all frequencies below 50hz to the sub and front door woofers and there is a line level reduction on anything from 50-200 hz as you turn up the volume. The reason why your bass doesn’t sound good even from an aftermarket system when tapping into the factory amp is that the signal simply isn’t clean. You can get something like an AudioControl Epicenter to try to recreate that missing bass but it can only do so much without sounding artificial and boomy.
You already have a DSP, why not just use an outside source to play a pure signal? Also your mapping isn’t ideal. The way you have it setup destroys imaging. I suggest not sending anything to the center channel. All source material is stereo, why not keep it pure? Also, I’d recommend keeping things simple. Mix in the factory dash, front door woofers and sub to get a stereo output, then split it to your 2-way front speakers as an active crossover and assign all frequencies front both mixed channels (80-100hz low pass, no high pass) to your sub.
This is interesting to know. I read earlier forum threads that said the front door and dash combined had the full range but may be not. With the combined door and dash and applying correct crossovers, the audio clarity has improved so much from the factory amp. At this point, I dont want to go down the rabbit hole with trying different things. I will probably leave the center disconnected, and let the stock amp drive the sub as is. It had plenty for my needs for now.
08-22-22, 08:59 AM
#6
At first we tried with just the front dash and door woofers but we quickly found that a lot of sub bass was missing when summed together. We had a lot better results with the factory sub summed in. yea, I’d recommend leaving the center disconnected.
08-22-22, 11:00 AM
#7
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Actually, do you think a JL Audio Fix-86 would work better in this case? It's supposed to undo whatever equalization that the factory amp is doing while also removing time correction. It combines up to 8-channels (in my case 7, Front Door/Dash, Rear Door and Sub) and output 6-channel line level output. I could then feed this 6 pre-outs to my JBL 4086 DSP. Do you think this would work best?
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08-22-22, 12:32 PM
#8
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Another point is that apparently some stock head unit/amp's completely Turn off that signal if it does not sense a load at the output. So in my case, given I have stock Amp's Sub out hanging in the dry, may be the stock HU/Amp are not passing any frequencies out? Stock sub is 2.5ohms.
This is all pointing me to few things:
- Get a full 8 channel input DSP/AMP like a Match PP 86DSP/ UP 8DSP and use all output of the stock amp.
- Get a JL Audio Fix-86 and connect the sub out into the fix86 for summing. I may also likely have to put a capacitive load like the FIX-LSA-4 if the fix86 by itself does not trigger the low frequencies
This is all pointing me to few things:
- Get a full 8 channel input DSP/AMP like a Match PP 86DSP/ UP 8DSP and use all output of the stock amp.
- Get a JL Audio Fix-86 and connect the sub out into the fix86 for summing. I may also likely have to put a capacitive load like the FIX-LSA-4 if the fix86 by itself does not trigger the low frequencies
08-22-22, 02:27 PM
#9
I’d say yes, you’d get better results with a JL Fix-86. It’s alot more sophisticated than the built in DSP in the JBL. It’ll flatten out the factory EQ as best as it can which will make everything sound more balanced however it still wont make the sub bass sound as good as a pure source. Yes, you could technically put it in between the factory amp and the JBL and just run the JBL in pure mode with no filters. This just seems like a lot of work to make the factory HU source sound marginally better than what you have it set as now. Is the JBL 4086 able to accept a pure seperate source either through RCA, coaxial, digital or even Bluetooth? This would be ideal since you completely bypass the factory amp.
Correct, some stock amps will cut off channels if they arent seeing a load on certain speakers, I know on my system (2021 IS350 non-ML) that it’s fine seeing no speaker load going to all the channels. The factory amp is going directly to my Mosconi DSP which has built in 50-60ohm load resistors and it doesn’t cut out any channels.
I’d say yes, sum the factory sub into the DSP. There a bit more sub bass there and I think your front woofers would benefit from that extra bit. If possible with your current DSP, take the summer signal from the sun and front woofers, apply maybe an 80hz or 100hz low pass filter with a 24/db slope and send that output to the factory sub. Your JBL 4086 is 8-channel output so even at just 60w @ 2ohms or perhaps ~50w @ 2.5ohms going to the sub, it’ll be a lot better than what the factory amp was pushing,
Correct, some stock amps will cut off channels if they arent seeing a load on certain speakers, I know on my system (2021 IS350 non-ML) that it’s fine seeing no speaker load going to all the channels. The factory amp is going directly to my Mosconi DSP which has built in 50-60ohm load resistors and it doesn’t cut out any channels.
I’d say yes, sum the factory sub into the DSP. There a bit more sub bass there and I think your front woofers would benefit from that extra bit. If possible with your current DSP, take the summer signal from the sun and front woofers, apply maybe an 80hz or 100hz low pass filter with a 24/db slope and send that output to the factory sub. Your JBL 4086 is 8-channel output so even at just 60w @ 2ohms or perhaps ~50w @ 2.5ohms going to the sub, it’ll be a lot better than what the factory amp was pushing,
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Gsr3is (08-22-22)
08-23-22, 09:12 PM
#10
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
I’d say yes, you’d get better results with a JL Fix-86. It’s alot more sophisticated than the built in DSP in the JBL. It’ll flatten out the factory EQ as best as it can which will make everything sound more balanced however it still wont make the sub bass sound as good as a pure source. Yes, you could technically put it in between the factory amp and the JBL and just run the JBL in pure mode with no filters. This just seems like a lot of work to make the factory HU source sound marginally better than what you have it set as now. Is the JBL 4086 able to accept a pure seperate source either through RCA, coaxial, digital or even Bluetooth? This would be ideal since you completely bypass the factory amp.
Correct, some stock amps will cut off channels if they arent seeing a load on certain speakers, I know on my system (2021 IS350 non-ML) that it’s fine seeing no speaker load going to all the channels. The factory amp is going directly to my Mosconi DSP which has built in 50-60ohm load resistors and it doesn’t cut out any channels.
I’d say yes, sum the factory sub into the DSP. There a bit more sub bass there and I think your front woofers would benefit from that extra bit. If possible with your current DSP, take the summer signal from the sun and front woofers, apply maybe an 80hz or 100hz low pass filter with a 24/db slope and send that output to the factory sub. Your JBL 4086 is 8-channel output so even at just 60w @ 2ohms or perhaps ~50w @ 2.5ohms going to the sub, it’ll be a lot better than what the factory amp was pushing,
Correct, some stock amps will cut off channels if they arent seeing a load on certain speakers, I know on my system (2021 IS350 non-ML) that it’s fine seeing no speaker load going to all the channels. The factory amp is going directly to my Mosconi DSP which has built in 50-60ohm load resistors and it doesn’t cut out any channels.
I’d say yes, sum the factory sub into the DSP. There a bit more sub bass there and I think your front woofers would benefit from that extra bit. If possible with your current DSP, take the summer signal from the sun and front woofers, apply maybe an 80hz or 100hz low pass filter with a 24/db slope and send that output to the factory sub. Your JBL 4086 is 8-channel output so even at just 60w @ 2ohms or perhaps ~50w @ 2.5ohms going to the sub, it’ll be a lot better than what the factory amp was pushing,
08-24-22, 04:10 PM
#12
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Thank you. I will wait on it for a bit then. I did some more research and there is also a Audison AP8.9 bit which is supposed to have de-eq as well similar to Fix-86 and it also has amp built into the same unit. I did not see anyone in the 3IS forums use it. Wondering if that is a better solution instead of the JBL4086 + Fix-86. One thing that I couldn't confirm is if the AP 8.9 does auto time correction or not.
Today, 09:40 AM
#14
Running helix v18 dsp amp
dash l/r
Mundorf AMTU80 Tweeter,
STEG SQ30Midrange,
Front Doors micro precision 5.16mark II
dash c
micro precision 5.8 wide range from audiotec Fischer real center algorithm
Rear Door Audiofrog GB60 midrange GB10 tweeter
C Pillar custom mount Audiofrog GB10 front passengers rear wired as rear fill boost
2 Focal p25fse 10”shallow mount sub in sealed stealth enclosure made by wicked CAS on each side in trunk
powered by STEG k2.03 amp. Cut out made to port sub sound in rear arm rest besides from stock sub location.
headunit custom android 13 with CarPlay. Asked some factory in China to add digital coax ouput instead of tapping aux of factory unit. Factory sound from oem for nav if used in order to get directions in f sport cluster still output but verry weakly. I think it switches input on helix quickly before switching back.
controlling helix with the helix director.
don’t seem to encounter bass issues even if running oem input the helix bass restore and expander do a decent job
dash l/r
Mundorf AMTU80 Tweeter,
STEG SQ30Midrange,
Front Doors micro precision 5.16mark II
dash c
micro precision 5.8 wide range from audiotec Fischer real center algorithm
Rear Door Audiofrog GB60 midrange GB10 tweeter
C Pillar custom mount Audiofrog GB10 front passengers rear wired as rear fill boost
2 Focal p25fse 10”shallow mount sub in sealed stealth enclosure made by wicked CAS on each side in trunk
powered by STEG k2.03 amp. Cut out made to port sub sound in rear arm rest besides from stock sub location.
headunit custom android 13 with CarPlay. Asked some factory in China to add digital coax ouput instead of tapping aux of factory unit. Factory sound from oem for nav if used in order to get directions in f sport cluster still output but verry weakly. I think it switches input on helix quickly before switching back.
controlling helix with the helix director.
don’t seem to encounter bass issues even if running oem input the helix bass restore and expander do a decent job
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