LS 4-piston Brake setup for my SC4
09-08-09, 12:00 AM
#256
eventually its your tires that do the stopping and not the brakes. i dont care if you have 8 piston fronts and 6 piston rears. when you have crap tires it will lock up at any speed. when the tire is rolling you have static friction. when you lock up the wheels you switch to kinetic friction. static friction coefficient is always greater then kinetic friction.
as an example:
best short track/street tire i have tried so far: falken azenis rt615. had it on the front. 265/32/18. the tire was heat cycled and down to almost a slick. my car has no abs and i can stand on my brake at 70 and not lock them up and the car will come to a hauls. amazing.
recently switched to a michelin mxv4 crap tire. i can lock that sucker up on the highway at almost triple digit speeds. the only difference on the car? tire...
my friend ran my SC300 at a lapping day against a guy driving an ENDLESS-built s15 sylvia. my car was catching up or passing him only in the braking zones. its not due to LS brakes. its due to tire choice.
if you want real braking try some Bridgestone RE-01R, RE-11, the new Advan Neuva AD08.
as an example:
best short track/street tire i have tried so far: falken azenis rt615. had it on the front. 265/32/18. the tire was heat cycled and down to almost a slick. my car has no abs and i can stand on my brake at 70 and not lock them up and the car will come to a hauls. amazing.
recently switched to a michelin mxv4 crap tire. i can lock that sucker up on the highway at almost triple digit speeds. the only difference on the car? tire...
my friend ran my SC300 at a lapping day against a guy driving an ENDLESS-built s15 sylvia. my car was catching up or passing him only in the braking zones. its not due to LS brakes. its due to tire choice.
if you want real braking try some Bridgestone RE-01R, RE-11, the new Advan Neuva AD08.
09-08-09, 04:33 AM
#257
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http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=552773 great info in there. Read it Ryeno, dont skim it actually READ it. if you dont understand part of it, READ it again.
09-08-09, 05:38 AM
#258
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http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=552773 great info in there. Read it Ryeno, dont skim it actually READ it. if you dont understand part of it, READ it again.
And the main points are:
"stopping distance is more a function of the tire then the brakes"
"this is more a result of other decisions Nissan made"
Do you see the importance of the word "more", that article NEVER says bigger brakes wont cause decreased stopping distances.
09-08-09, 07:52 AM
#259
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Double post i know but i am really over this conversation so let me wrap it up.
Lets take 2 cars, one with a bbk and one with normal brakes. Hell lets just take a supra na and a supra tt. Now lets give them both the SAME tires and both tires CAN trigger ABS.
Now according to your argument GSteg, both will have the same stopping distance since both trigger ABS. WRONG
Take both cars and have them stop from 80mph. The supra TT will experience minor/no fade while the na will experience a lot of fade. Not only that but the TT will hit the abs limit faster. So when you look at it from push the pedel to 0, its obvious even with the same tires the tt will stop faster.
Now lets say you get a bracket and put tt rotors on the na calipers and even upgrade the pads. Well good job now you wont have the rotor/pad overheating but you have a new problem. You just increased the rotating mass so now you dont have enough bite to stop the rotor. So once again the supra tt will out brake you.
In order to increase your bite, you add 2 more pistons to the front rotors and 1 more to the rear. Well good job now your car will brake as well as the supra tt but you have basically made supra tt calipers.
GSteg, toyota didnt upgrade the tt brakes for fun. Ultimately the tires slow down the car but the brakes slow down the tires.
Lets take 2 cars, one with a bbk and one with normal brakes. Hell lets just take a supra na and a supra tt. Now lets give them both the SAME tires and both tires CAN trigger ABS.
Now according to your argument GSteg, both will have the same stopping distance since both trigger ABS. WRONG
Take both cars and have them stop from 80mph. The supra TT will experience minor/no fade while the na will experience a lot of fade. Not only that but the TT will hit the abs limit faster. So when you look at it from push the pedel to 0, its obvious even with the same tires the tt will stop faster.
Now lets say you get a bracket and put tt rotors on the na calipers and even upgrade the pads. Well good job now you wont have the rotor/pad overheating but you have a new problem. You just increased the rotating mass so now you dont have enough bite to stop the rotor. So once again the supra tt will out brake you.
In order to increase your bite, you add 2 more pistons to the front rotors and 1 more to the rear. Well good job now your car will brake as well as the supra tt but you have basically made supra tt calipers.
GSteg, toyota didnt upgrade the tt brakes for fun. Ultimately the tires slow down the car but the brakes slow down the tires.
09-08-09, 08:46 AM
#260
Again you're missing the point of ABS. I didn't say because the car will hit ABS, they'll brake the same. If that's the case, you can just throw the same tires on a big rig and stop from 60mph under 120ft. ABS will limit the brake force to prevent lockup way before the calipers can provide their maximum clamping power. If the NA supra brakes can clamp hard enough to lock the wheels, what makes you think more force will provide shorter distance? TT will help if the friction coefficient between the tire and the road exceeds that of what the NA brakes can handle.
I've already explained why the TT needs better brakes over the NA, and it's definitely not for fun. It needs higher thermal capacity that the NAs can't provide, plain and simple. It also provides for different pedal feel and brake modulation (given the right master cylinder)
Here is the equation for braking distance:
d = V2/(2g(f + G))
Where:
d = Braking Distance (ft)
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2 ft/sec2)
G = Roadway grade as a percentage; for 2% use 0.02
V = Initial vehicle speed (ft/sec)
f = Coefficient of friction between the tires and the roadway
There is NOTHING in that equation that suggests play a big role in it. Why? Because it's not the limiting factor unless your pads are made out of blocks of cheese.
From Stoptech's website:
From STaSIS Engineering website:
From Brembo's FAQ:
I've already explained why the TT needs better brakes over the NA, and it's definitely not for fun. It needs higher thermal capacity that the NAs can't provide, plain and simple. It also provides for different pedal feel and brake modulation (given the right master cylinder)
Here is the equation for braking distance:
d = V2/(2g(f + G))
Where:
d = Braking Distance (ft)
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2 ft/sec2)
G = Roadway grade as a percentage; for 2% use 0.02
V = Initial vehicle speed (ft/sec)
f = Coefficient of friction between the tires and the roadway
There is NOTHING in that equation that suggests play a big role in it. Why? Because it's not the limiting factor unless your pads are made out of blocks of cheese.
From Stoptech's website:
1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.
Why should I upgrade my front calipers?
A: The OEM brake caliper has enough brake torque to initiate ABS, which is a clear indication that no increase in brake torque is required. However, the OEM sliding caliper system does have some drawbacks. A sliding caliper has a piston (or pistons) on the inside of the caliper, and a sliding bridge with a solid backing plate on the outside. As the caliper piston(s) extend, the bridge slides inboard and applies pressure to the outboard side of the rotor. In comparison, an opposed piston caliper has pistons in either side of the caliper. By removing the sliding bridge, you are removing much of the flex of the OEM brake system. To improve everyday brake “feel”, changing the caliper to an opposed piston one is a good move. It will provide a more linear brake pedal, with easier light brake modulation.
A: The OEM brake caliper has enough brake torque to initiate ABS, which is a clear indication that no increase in brake torque is required. However, the OEM sliding caliper system does have some drawbacks. A sliding caliper has a piston (or pistons) on the inside of the caliper, and a sliding bridge with a solid backing plate on the outside. As the caliper piston(s) extend, the bridge slides inboard and applies pressure to the outboard side of the rotor. In comparison, an opposed piston caliper has pistons in either side of the caliper. By removing the sliding bridge, you are removing much of the flex of the OEM brake system. To improve everyday brake “feel”, changing the caliper to an opposed piston one is a good move. It will provide a more linear brake pedal, with easier light brake modulation.
Where can I find test data on stopping distances?
At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire’s grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time. The Brembo systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking. The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time.
At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire’s grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time. The Brembo systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking. The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time.
09-08-09, 09:01 AM
#261
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W/e I am done talking to you. Your equation doesnt have brakes in it because is the tire relative to the road. But what i am talking about is the brake system relative to the tire. By focusing on ABS and tires, you are missing half the picture. (that is the braking system)
Like i said i am done talking to you, go reread my posts and maybe you will finally "See"
EDIT: when i asked you if putting supra tt rims/tires on an na would give you tt braking you said "NO". EXACTLY. See you yourself know it deep down inside that tires arent the end all be all of braking and that rotor/caliper/pads matter. But for w/e reason you cant consciously bring yourself to say that. I personally think its better either you are trying to find reasons for not needing to spend money on upgrades or because you have invested too much time arguing with me that you cant realize you are wrong. But w/e the reason you basically destroyed your argument when you said that. So now this discussion is over.
Last edited by Ryeno; 09-08-09 at 09:27 AM.
09-08-09, 11:34 AM
#263
I understand there is more to braking than ABS. But do you not realize ABS is what's stopping you from using all your brake force? Think about it. Understand how the sensors work and why adding larger brakes doesn't automatically allow you to use its full potential.
What's there to discuss about brakes relative to tire? Lets think about this long and hard. Seriously. If your OEM brakes can stop the wheels from spinning to a standstill...what is a larger brake system going to do? Spin it in reverse? I know it's counter-intuitive for you.
What's there to see? Here is what you originally said:
Apparently you know something Stoptech and Brembo doesn't know. You can defy physics like no other.
Deep down inside I know throwing a BBK set onto your car will not provide shorter distance WITHOUT tires that grip more. Of course tires aren't the only thing, but they are largest contributor to stopping. You make it seem as if you can buy a Stoptech kit and then all of the sudden stop much shorter than the stock brakes. Even big names in motorsport knows that's just a pile of crap.
I've had my 'upgraded' LS400 brakes longer than you have been a member on this forum. Shorter stopping distance is not the reason why I changed out my brakes.
W/e I am done talking to you. Your equation doesnt have brakes in it because is the tire relative to the road. But what i am talking about is the brake system relative to the tire. By focusing on ABS and tires, you are missing half the picture. (that is the braking system)
Like i said i am done talking to you, go reread my posts and maybe you will finally "See"
Apparently you know something Stoptech and Brembo doesn't know. You can defy physics like no other.
EDIT: when i asked you if putting supra tt rims/tires on an na would give you tt braking you said "NO". EXACTLY. See you yourself know it deep down inside that tires arent the end all be all of braking and that rotor/caliper/pads matter.
But for w/e reason you cant consciously bring yourself to say that. I personally think its better either you are trying to find reasons for not needing to spend money on upgrades or because you have invested too much time arguing with me that you cant realize you are wrong. But w/e the reason you basically destroyed your argument when you said that. So now this discussion is over.
09-23-09, 09:26 PM
#269
i think someone else mentioned this, but it would seem to me that rather than finding used calipers, might as well go to the local auto parts store and pick up some reman's with brackets and hardware. Ive picked these up for other cars that need them. Should have everything you need and have a lifetime warranty. And if you can pass off you SC calipers for the core, it would come out quite a bit cheaper.
