Guitarman

I had my car in for an alignment yesterday, prior to some new tires, and during a test drive afterward, the tech (whom I've known many years) said he had a panic stop incident, and told me he couldn't believe how bad the brakes were, that he nearly had to bury the pedal to get pad engagement. I told him I felt he was exaggerating slightly on the degree of travel, but It scared him and he asked me how I could drive the car with them that way.

I explained that I was used to it, and that MANY, MANY here at CL, as well as online car test reviewers ( in at least 1 article written back in '98 or '99) have mentioned the long pedal travel and mushy feel to these brakes. I also told him I NEVER had a close call with the car, and that I learned to compensate for it. In fact I added, I felt the car stopped incredibly well once the brakes engaged. I promised to print out reams of CL testimonials to the validity of my claim that I was not alone. And I did, and showed him. He was unimpressed, saying "that doesn't mean it has to be that way...you shouldn't have that kind of pedal feel, the master cylinder rod is bottoming out, I can feel it"

He said it was "not acceptable" and wanted to find out why. I told him to "go for it".

They called and said they spoke to Lexus and that there was a TSB on the issue( has anyone ever heard this???) , and said they were waiting on the TSB.

Meanwhile, they kept the car overnight, and I got a call the next day saying the car was done, to come pick it up, The tech (Dean) then asked me if I thought I'd like "about 2 inches LESS pedal travel". Is that a trick question? Hell yeah!

Got there, drove it. OMG! The pedal is firm and high and the stopping power is so much more sensitive now, I will have to relearn how to use them. Now the brakes on this car finally match and compliment the power.

Now the nebulous part; I asked him how he did it, if the TSB was helpful etc.

All he said was basically. "trade secret" of a long time tech and started laughing.

I just said " you're really not going to tell me? "

He then started saying that he had to remove the calipers from the car, put them in a bench vise, heat them up really good, sand, clean, and reassemble them then LUBE them up well with the proper grease. He said that he sees the same problem in other makes of cars and it stems from people NOT doing a proper brake job. He explained that there are certain things that must be done with the guide rails and caliper pins, and that they can freeze up and even rust, preventing the caliper ( and thus the pads) from keeping a close minimum distance to the rotor. He also said that perhaps Lexus had an issue with this right out of the box on a majority of the cars, that there might've been insufficient grease/lubrication to the calipers to allow them to float properly, right from the factory. Maybe Vvti or another Lexus tech can explain if this makes any sense or not, I don't know. All I do know is that it's like driving a new car, the brakes are AWESOME now, very tight and powerful, and "right there' without the mushiness of before.

If any of you have a pedal feel like I did, have a KNOWLEDGEABLE shop look into it. It's really worth it. Just do it. He never said if he got the info from a TSB or not, but I don't care how he zeroed in on it. Many thanks to Dean at Auto Works Of Holly Hill, Florida, for caring enough to sort this out.

Cost me $96, best bang for my buck on this car yet. I can only imagine that adding S/S brake lines will really rock from here. Happy holidays all, be safe Dan H

redgs4

Wow! That's $4K+ cheaper than my fix.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

umm very interesting, so it's not a TSB issue, it's just the age of the brakes over time?

Guitarman

I never got a definitive on whether or not they found the TSB on the issue, they told me that Lexus said there was one, but it may have pertained to another aspect of the brake system causing this issue, not sure. The Tech told me he looked at the caliper issue because he'd seen the same problem on other makes. Not sure if the TSB led him there though.

What if lexus really had this issue early on with many of the GS cars? Within this scenario, It could be seen in varying degrees on different cars, 'cause if the caliper doesn't slide / move as it should, those pistons pushing the pads out will have a longer way to travel to hit those rotors. I guess it all depends on where it's binding or locked up, as to how it affects pedal feel and brake contact. He said mine was actually fused and had to be heated with a torch to free it ( them) up.

Amazing.

3dog

iTrader: (1)

Wow I just sat down to ask if anyone else knew anything about this. My car does this exactly. I feel like I can push the pedal all the way to the floor. I have had mechanics change the fluid, & bleed the lines on 2 occasions and it still scares me. I get in my wife's car and its like a whole different breaking system. It works like you would want it to.

I'm going to try and find the best brake guy I can and have them look into this. I have been wondering about this for over a year. My wife is afraid of driving my car because of it. I just am used to it, though I do not like it. I like to drive WOT but you also need to be able to stop.

Thank you Guitarman



ivan
3dog

Guitarman

You're welcome. If your tech guy wants to compare notes with the people that did mine, the phone number is ( long distance of course); 386 673-5500. The place is called Auto Works of Holly Hill. Dean is the head tech (former Ford ASE Master tech), and the guy that worked on mine. I don't think they'd mind helping another repair facility in another state, because they were looking to Lexus for info initially.

Your guy may have some insight on it on his own though if he's experienced with this problem, especially with help from my info as to what & where to look. Best of luck, you won't regret it if they solve it like mine.

3dog

iTrader: (1)

Hey thanks for the phone number. I ordered Braided SS brakelines today and might get some new pads as well.

Really looking forward to having good brakes.

Ivan
3dog

3dog

iTrader: (1)

My car is in the shop right now. They just called after taking the front calipers apart and they said they found a frozen pin and they can't get it to move. They are afraid to heat it to much because of some dust cover rubber thing.

So I guess the good thing is they found the frozen pin. Hopefully they will figure out what to do, to get it to work. They are also putting on the Braided Stainless Steel Brakeslines.


Really looking forward to having good brakes.

Thanks for the advice Guitarman

3dog

RRocket

This thread was not entirely suprising to me. I generally don't follow threads that concern a problem I'm not having, but since I saw the capital letters, I said "what the heck" and read it. This is VERY basic maintenance. Since I work on all my cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, and other toys myself, I almost yawned when I saw his solution to the problem. I guess not many people who own Lexus do their own brakes, or maintenance. The 2nd problem is that alot of the younger techs or techs in new dealerships also fail to do proper basic maintenance. To cut costs, instead of tearing a caliper apart, they'll just remove the suspect one and replace it with a new one without actually checking to make sure the new one is properly lubed. It's kinda sad. I encourage EVERYONE to learn how to do basic maintenance on their cars. And you don't have to be an engineer like me to do it. My fiancee, who is as mechanically inept as can be (sometimes I'm astounded she can even zip up a jacket) was able to do a complete brake job under my supervision. She also did an old drum brake set-up, which is more difficult to do. Most people here don't give themselves enough credit for their ability. If you can put together a childs toy, screw in a light bulb, or tie a shoelace, you CAN do a brake job and other maintenance. You CAN do it....you CAN learn. And you'll feel better knowing the job was done well and done right. It's a nice way to spend an afternoon bonding with your car and feeling good about your new-found abilities. Have faith in yourself. Buy the shop manuals, a decent socket set and a torque wrench, and you have most of what you'll need to tackle these small jobs. I'm 32 and have showed younger and older people how to do these things. We all have the ability, we just need to get the confidence to try...

3dog

iTrader: (1)

Well now I feel completely inept. I'll tell you what happens when I try to do something by myself. Everytime something goes wrong. Something comes up, something sticks, jams or breaks, and you need to know the trick or have some mystery tool. Now if you are well versed in this you probably know how to deal with the unexpected problem. The last thing I need is to have something torn apart and not be able to finish the job either from lack of knowledge something breaking or not having the right part. Then my car is stuck there until I can get someone to come fix my mess. All of those have happened to me.

And you know what else I hate getting grease on my hands. There are a lot of ways I would rather spend my time than laying on my back & getting crap in my eyes, not to mention the stress when it does not go according to the manual. I live in Seattle and don't have a garage. It rains a lot and lately it has been 28 to 35 degrees, hardly pleasant temperatures. I work hard all week and am more than willing to pay someone else to do the work. I have to agree with you that to many techs cut corners and that is why when you find a good honest one you stick with them.

Now I will grant you that I have heard that if you want it done right you need to do it yourself.
And I'm sure that doing it yourself saves you lots of money and aggravation. I'm also sure that if you are good at it, that you feel tremendous satisfaction in doing the job yourself.


Right now my car has 3 calipers working like they should. But on one of them, drivers side front, the caliper pin is stuck. The shop is trying to figure out if there is a part they can replace short of replacing the whole caliper. And of course they could not find anything Sat. So when I take my car in Wed. to have them put the Torque Converter on I hope they can finish the brake job.

Boy I'll bet your girlfriend, (who can barely zip her jacket) just loves having you show her how to do brake jobs. If the two of you break up I'll bet she never does another one! Just kidding I'm sure she loves doing that stuff. he he

3dog

RRocket

Hahaha...she doesn't mind. She kept saying she could NEVER do it and I said she could. She I proved to her that she can do it with the right instruction. Hey..no worries, if you don't like working on cars, then don't do the work yourself. I love cars so much I just like being around them, working on them, looking at them. That's why I became an engineer in the auto manufacturing industry...to be around and make stuff for cars....

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

RRocket, I understand your opinion, but I really don't consider BRAKE CALIPER REPAIR & LUBE basic maintenance. And I am an engineer. While I wholeheartedly agree with you that people should try to do more of their own work (like changing brake pads). screwing with a caliper is not exactly my idea of a good time, due to safety issues. There can be a big penalty for getting it wrong, especially for the unfamiliar, and there aren't too many people that you can ask for advice that have that experience. I've taken engines apart, etc., but when you don't know exactly what the brake problem is beforehand, I'd just as well leave it to a guy I TRUST that does it every day.
My $0.02.

RRocket

Perhaps I misunderstood his post, but I was under the impression it was the pins that were seized up/rusted, and not the actual pistons in the calipers. If it was indeed the pins, that is a basic piece of brake maintenance, and they are to be cleaned and lubed properly everytime you do the pads. Basic. However, if he meant that the piston was seized up, well that's certainly not basic, and unless you know what's you're doing I agree that you should leave that one to a pro...

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

All I'll say is that any time we're talking about heating up brake components with a propane torch, I'd leave that to professionals.

Guitarman

The spin on this, for ME at least, is that when I bought my GS 2 years ago, I was reading about mushy brakes on CL from the get go, so i didn't think there WAS a problem with my car, just that it was "the way they all were".

It took someone with tech knowledge to cry foul and say there was a problem there, and I'm fortunate they did, because I was "used to" the pedal feel after 2 years.

Now, this is in line with what RRocket says; The car had a brake job (new pads, turn rotors etc) about 5k before I bought it, by LEXUS (I have the paperwork) so I *thought* i was in good shape for a while.

Little did I know that the reason the brakes had so much pedal travel was a result of (apparently) what the Lexus techs DID NOT do during that service, as Ron stated.
I've done enough brake jobs myself, and probably would have found the problem had I looked into it ( I hope so anyway) , but...after reading so many stories on mushy brakes here, I wasn't looking for a specific problem.

How many others among us may have this issue? It might explain a lot if these caliper pins (or the pistons for that matter) are prone to this....That's what I'm curious about.