heres my REAR BID BRAKE UPGRADE
03-28-05, 08:58 PM
#76
Originally Posted by DaveGS4
Howard,
Since the current Stoptech front is designed to work in balance with the OEM rear GS brakes.... Does this mean you will be making a different front brake (or different piston size) to work in harmony with the new upcoming rear Stoptech brake?
Since the current Stoptech front is designed to work in balance with the OEM rear GS brakes.... Does this mean you will be making a different front brake (or different piston size) to work in harmony with the new upcoming rear Stoptech brake?
that's a good question, since the current 14" stoptech is already balance with the stock rear. or unless the stoptech rear 2 pots (the stock one is also 2 pots) will have almost the same stopping power as the oem
this is interesting, coz' the gs and the sc430 share the same bracket setup....
03-28-05, 10:31 PM
#77
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by StopTech
We are working on a rear kit for the GS. This will be a 2 piston caliper rather than a 4 piston.
03-29-05, 05:24 AM
#79
Originally Posted by StopTech
We are working on a rear kit for the GS. This will be a 2 piston caliper rather than a 4 piston. The problem with the 4 piston is that it created too much brake torque putting brake bias on the rear. With too much brake bias on the rear, braking becomes unstable. This may explain some of the confusion that is out there.
Our brackets are machined out of billet aluminum right here in our facilities in Torrance, CA. They are then anodized to prevent corrosion. This is done with every single one of our custom brackets.
Our big brake kits work in perfect harmony with the stock system as well as maintain brake balance. We pick the correct piston sizes to maintain brake balance, or improve brake balance depending on the application. The larger the piston the more brake torque is exerted. This also allows our 4 piston to create as much brake torque as other 6 piston calipers. If the pistons are too large for the given rotor, then brake torque would be too much and the other axle will be underultilized. For anyone that does not understand the importance of brake balance, please see our technical paper on the topic. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...erformance.htm
Our kits maintain brake balance and are meant to go with stock rear calipers. Again we do this by selecting the right piston sizing. Most other companies do not have the ability to place in custom piston sizing for each specific platform. The piston sizing that is on a GS400 is not the same as the piston sizing for a Neon SRT-4
I saw that there was some comparison in regards to surface area of brake pads. The larger the pad the more heat capacity it has. Larger pads do not necessarily mean more brake torque. Please see this FAQ for more info. http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq10.html
Our brackets are machined out of billet aluminum right here in our facilities in Torrance, CA. They are then anodized to prevent corrosion. This is done with every single one of our custom brackets.
Our big brake kits work in perfect harmony with the stock system as well as maintain brake balance. We pick the correct piston sizes to maintain brake balance, or improve brake balance depending on the application. The larger the piston the more brake torque is exerted. This also allows our 4 piston to create as much brake torque as other 6 piston calipers. If the pistons are too large for the given rotor, then brake torque would be too much and the other axle will be underultilized. For anyone that does not understand the importance of brake balance, please see our technical paper on the topic. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...erformance.htm
Our kits maintain brake balance and are meant to go with stock rear calipers. Again we do this by selecting the right piston sizing. Most other companies do not have the ability to place in custom piston sizing for each specific platform. The piston sizing that is on a GS400 is not the same as the piston sizing for a Neon SRT-4
I saw that there was some comparison in regards to surface area of brake pads. The larger the pad the more heat capacity it has. Larger pads do not necessarily mean more brake torque. Please see this FAQ for more info. http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq10.html
thanks johnny for correcting me on the material used
stoptech,,,, the pad surface area of the ls430 are larger the stock gs in fact almost twice the size , but as you yourself mentioned about piston sizing , the ls430 rear piston size is larger then stock gs sizes so it will in fact create more rear brake trq..and with using the supra tt rotor size in the rear it dis. heat quickly.
when i had used just the supra tt fronts, i used to get a unbalanced feel while braking until very heavy loads , kinda felt like the rear was going to swing on me esp under cornering, since changing to this setup a better bal has been achieved...i can stand on these brakes all day long from any speeds without any feeling of losing control.. brake pedal modulation has gotten to be almost instant and i dont see the front rotors getting as hot as before which to me further confirms that now the rears are pulling their fair share..
i will not dispute the integ of a maker like stop tech , i know if they truly put together a 4 wheel it would be out of this world , but will i want to spend close to 5gs on brakes that i will rarely if ever get to use to its fullest potential ..not really , this setup being custom and has been used for over 21/2 yrs in japan via club aristo is a must do mods for most aristo owners out there,, in fact from multiple club sites out there is were i got most of my info from ..
it works and works for under 2k for front and back setup which works for me
now if stoptech would like me try out one of their 4wheel setups seeing that i have this to compare to ,i would be very onterested in doing so
03-29-05, 10:44 AM
#80
I am glad StopTech is stepping up to do this. When I asked a few months ago, there were no plans for a rear kit.
It is hard to compare the TT setup vs the StopTech setup as the caliper and piston sizes are different. If the TTs felt somewhat unbalanced with the fronts only, it does not necessarily translate to the StopTechs exhibiting the same behavior.
I am glad you are enjoying your setup Ed. Others with the TTs up front may benefit from your lead. There is still caution, however, that people will StopTechs, Brembos, APs, Endless, and so on will see the same benefits. I have a few theories on this new rear setup too but I will wait for StopTechs' release to see what they say about the rear kit first.
The setup looks good though. Here are pics (remember, though, that it is not yet available to the GS):
I'm looking forward to see the new 4-corners. Maybe it will be time to upgrade my front 355s.
It is hard to compare the TT setup vs the StopTech setup as the caliper and piston sizes are different. If the TTs felt somewhat unbalanced with the fronts only, it does not necessarily translate to the StopTechs exhibiting the same behavior.
I am glad you are enjoying your setup Ed. Others with the TTs up front may benefit from your lead. There is still caution, however, that people will StopTechs, Brembos, APs, Endless, and so on will see the same benefits. I have a few theories on this new rear setup too but I will wait for StopTechs' release to see what they say about the rear kit first.
The setup looks good though. Here are pics (remember, though, that it is not yet available to the GS):
I'm looking forward to see the new 4-corners. Maybe it will be time to upgrade my front 355s.
03-29-05, 03:29 PM
#81
Lexus Test Driver
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I just happened to send an email asking about the availibility of this rear kit for GS's, and whether or not a new front kit will be required. This is the response i got:
The rear kit should be available within the next couple months. It will be an add-on kit that is compatible with the StopTech front kit and will not require any further modifications.
The rear kit will include rotors, brackets, calipers pads and lines.
The rear kit should be available within the next couple months. It will be an add-on kit that is compatible with the StopTech front kit and will not require any further modifications.
The rear kit will include rotors, brackets, calipers pads and lines.
03-29-05, 03:55 PM
#82
Originally Posted by BC-GS430
It will be an add-on kit that is compatible with the StopTech front kit and will not require any further modifications.
The rear kit will include rotors, brackets, calipers pads and lines.
The rear kit will include rotors, brackets, calipers pads and lines.
I am really anticipating the official news release to see if any of this is mentioned.
03-29-05, 03:56 PM
#83
Driver School Candidate
Originally Posted by StopTech
SNIP
Our big brake kits work in perfect harmony with the stock system as well as maintain brake balance. We pick the correct piston sizes to maintain brake balance, or improve brake balance depending on the application. The larger the piston the more brake torque is exerted. If the pistons are too large for the given rotor, then brake torque would be too much and the other axle will be underultilized. For anyone that does not understand the importance of brake balance, please see our technical paper on the topic. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers...performance.htm
Our kits maintain brake balance and are meant to go with stock rear calipers. Again we do this by selecting the right piston sizing. Most other companies do not have the ability to place in custom piston sizing for each specific platform. The piston sizing that is on a GS400 is not the same as the piston sizing for a Neon SRT-4
SNIP
Our big brake kits work in perfect harmony with the stock system as well as maintain brake balance. We pick the correct piston sizes to maintain brake balance, or improve brake balance depending on the application. The larger the piston the more brake torque is exerted. If the pistons are too large for the given rotor, then brake torque would be too much and the other axle will be underultilized. For anyone that does not understand the importance of brake balance, please see our technical paper on the topic. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers...performance.htm
Our kits maintain brake balance and are meant to go with stock rear calipers. Again we do this by selecting the right piston sizing. Most other companies do not have the ability to place in custom piston sizing for each specific platform. The piston sizing that is on a GS400 is not the same as the piston sizing for a Neon SRT-4
So they are saying that the Stoptech front kit is made perfectly balanced to the standard rears.
Then when Stoptech release a rear kit that the same kit that suited the standard rears is now perfectly balanced to their new rear kit ???
So either their new rear kit is no better than the standard rears (why bother?) or Stoptech are feeding us crap!
03-29-05, 04:05 PM
#84
Originally Posted by cyberdiamo
So either their new rear kit is no better than the standard rears (why bother?) or Stoptech are feeding us crap!
There is also a matter of feel. Not everyone will have SS line in tne rear although it can be done separately. Then, there is a matter of weight. Since I never took off the rear brakes, I can't be completely sure. The fronts, however, were heavy. The StopTech 355 kit, although offered everything larger: pads, rotors (2-pc), and caliper, the weight was less. I can't speak for the pads but the rotors and the calipers on the StopTech were lighter. The weight loss made a noticeable difference in handling. This may also help with the rears too.
Again, it is too early to pass judgement on this kit. No spects other than the visual and parts have been released. Everything else we (including me
) are doing is pure speculation.
03-29-05, 04:07 PM
#85
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The brake kit will be an add-on kit. Brake balance will be maintained whether this rear kit is on the car or not.
When we select piston sizing we aren't randomly selecting "larger" piston sizes. We go through specific formulas and testing to figure out exacltly which piston sizes maintain brake balance. Our development isn't just trying on some calipers and seeing what "feels" good. I'm not familiar with the specifics that are on Lexforlife's car. It may work out that brake balance has been acheived by your setup, but it is really difficult to tell for a number of reasons. Unless the car is driven to the limit it would be difficult to differentiate where the balance is. Also there are a number of car control systems such as ABS which would mask off any balance problems. Most bastardized(for lack of better wods) brake upgrades will throw off brake balance. Lexforlife's setup may have it. When StopTech was first started, "brake balance" wasn't in the vocabulary of message boards or any aftermarket brake systems.
All in all, more brake torque isn't going to do anything unless the driver has good sticky tires. The brake system can't do anymore braking if the tires are locked, or in ABS. Just keep in mind that the main feature of big brake kits is heat capacity.
When we select piston sizing we aren't randomly selecting "larger" piston sizes. We go through specific formulas and testing to figure out exacltly which piston sizes maintain brake balance. Our development isn't just trying on some calipers and seeing what "feels" good. I'm not familiar with the specifics that are on Lexforlife's car. It may work out that brake balance has been acheived by your setup, but it is really difficult to tell for a number of reasons. Unless the car is driven to the limit it would be difficult to differentiate where the balance is. Also there are a number of car control systems such as ABS which would mask off any balance problems. Most bastardized(for lack of better wods) brake upgrades will throw off brake balance. Lexforlife's setup may have it. When StopTech was first started, "brake balance" wasn't in the vocabulary of message boards or any aftermarket brake systems.
All in all, more brake torque isn't going to do anything unless the driver has good sticky tires. The brake system can't do anymore braking if the tires are locked, or in ABS. Just keep in mind that the main feature of big brake kits is heat capacity.
03-29-05, 04:31 PM
#86
so howard, a bit confused but i would ask anyway, so is it true that the stoptech rear 2 pot setup will pretty much have the same stopping power as the oem rear, since you said that the front is the same and it's balance with the oem or the stoptech rear?
03-29-05, 04:36 PM
#87
Thanks Howard. Do you have any projected goals yet?
Yes, there will be weight savings in the caliper but what about the rotor? Do you have a projected size yet? Will it get the 2-pc version?
As you can tell from previous posts, I do have the 355 kit and have an interest in the outcome of this rear kit.
Yes, there will be weight savings in the caliper but what about the rotor? Do you have a projected size yet? Will it get the 2-pc version?
As you can tell from previous posts, I do have the 355 kit and have an interest in the outcome of this rear kit.
03-29-05, 04:38 PM
#88
Driver School Candidate
Originally Posted by StopTech
The brake kit will be an add-on kit. Brake balance will be maintained whether this rear kit is on the car or not.
When we select piston sizing we aren't randomly selecting "larger" piston sizes. We go through specific formulas and testing to figure out exacltly which piston sizes maintain brake balance. Our development isn't just trying on some calipers and seeing what "feels" good. I'm not familiar with the specifics that are on Lexforlife's car. It may work out that brake balance has been acheived by your setup, but it is really difficult to tell for a number of reasons. Unless the car is driven to the limit it would be difficult to differentiate where the balance is. Also there are a number of car control systems such as ABS which would mask off any balance problems. Most bastardized(for lack of better wods) brake upgrades will throw off brake balance. Lexforlife's setup may have it. When StopTech was first started, "brake balance" wasn't in the vocabulary of message boards or any aftermarket brake systems.
All in all, more brake torque isn't going to do anything unless the driver has good sticky tires. The brake system can't do anymore braking if the tires are locked, or in ABS. Just keep in mind that the main feature of big brake kits is heat capacity.
When we select piston sizing we aren't randomly selecting "larger" piston sizes. We go through specific formulas and testing to figure out exacltly which piston sizes maintain brake balance. Our development isn't just trying on some calipers and seeing what "feels" good. I'm not familiar with the specifics that are on Lexforlife's car. It may work out that brake balance has been acheived by your setup, but it is really difficult to tell for a number of reasons. Unless the car is driven to the limit it would be difficult to differentiate where the balance is. Also there are a number of car control systems such as ABS which would mask off any balance problems. Most bastardized(for lack of better wods) brake upgrades will throw off brake balance. Lexforlife's setup may have it. When StopTech was first started, "brake balance" wasn't in the vocabulary of message boards or any aftermarket brake systems.
All in all, more brake torque isn't going to do anything unless the driver has good sticky tires. The brake system can't do anymore braking if the tires are locked, or in ABS. Just keep in mind that the main feature of big brake kits is heat capacity.
I do understand brake bias as I make my own rear brake kit for one of my previous cars from scratch about 10 years ago!
I had put bigger fronts on it and the car nose dived under hard braking, the car came out with rear drum brakes, as I found out once finished the new rear disc setup it was far to much rear brakes then so I fitted an ajustable bias valve and took it on the track where I set it up using slicks and street tyres (basically worked out the 2 settings on the dial I needed).
I also understand how abs works and how it affects stopping distances with unbalanced front to rear brakes.
Could you perhaps tell us the brake percentages front to rear with and without your rear kit.
(ie Stoptech front standard rear 75%-25%, Stoptech front and rear kit 70%-30%)
03-29-05, 05:43 PM
#89
howard (stoptech)
thanks for your replies but let me clarify some points here
firstly i for one dont just throw on anything on my car.. i have researched this to death from some forums out of japan.
secondly , the testing i do may not be considered truly professional but works for me.. i drive very hard and very aggressive 95% OF THE TIME (MANY CAN ATTEST TO THIS FACT) . i have done multiple hard stops from 120 to 0 , straight line as well as while cornering to push the limits of this setup.. never once have i engaged my abs .. the only time i would be able to engage abs if i jam on the brakes for a sudden stop and even then it did not happen immed.. finding a balance to me is not all that elusive. i could tell the day i put these on driving with my friend johnee78 that the car felt more controlled under heavy braking.. if bal was not achieved then i would have locked up my rears before the fronts... never happened. the car stops with little effort. when i had only the fronts , i destroyed a set of powerslot front rotors within 4months , i now use brembo sport rotors and i see little evidence if any of heat checking, scorching of the rotors or even brake pad burning smells under severe braking.
when i looked at the oem design , i saw the fronts are 2 piston and rears were 2 piston with a larger rotor then the fronts but with a smaller pad surface area.. the designers achieved brake bal..
using a supra tt front with ls430 rears just about duplicates supra tt front and rears which are balanced as a set.. so therefore it not only feels good it is actually balanced and working well but then again i knew that from the guys in japan that have using this setup for over 21/2 years
i know stoptech and your brambos etc have been designed specifically for certain cars but i could never understand how you can go from a 2 pot to a 6pot 355mm setup , still use stock rears and state its perfectly balanced but yet to justify the cost the fronts have bigger braking power , unless what howrd is saying is true that its not the trq value thats increased just the ability to disapate heat better for repetitive braking..
just my observation , and howard my offer still stands , i would be very intertested in trying a set of yours (i do my own installs) just to see if there is any justification for spending the extra 2500+ for the wow factor
thanks for your replies but let me clarify some points here
firstly i for one dont just throw on anything on my car.. i have researched this to death from some forums out of japan.
secondly , the testing i do may not be considered truly professional but works for me.. i drive very hard and very aggressive 95% OF THE TIME (MANY CAN ATTEST TO THIS FACT) . i have done multiple hard stops from 120 to 0 , straight line as well as while cornering to push the limits of this setup.. never once have i engaged my abs .. the only time i would be able to engage abs if i jam on the brakes for a sudden stop and even then it did not happen immed.. finding a balance to me is not all that elusive. i could tell the day i put these on driving with my friend johnee78 that the car felt more controlled under heavy braking.. if bal was not achieved then i would have locked up my rears before the fronts... never happened. the car stops with little effort. when i had only the fronts , i destroyed a set of powerslot front rotors within 4months , i now use brembo sport rotors and i see little evidence if any of heat checking, scorching of the rotors or even brake pad burning smells under severe braking.
when i looked at the oem design , i saw the fronts are 2 piston and rears were 2 piston with a larger rotor then the fronts but with a smaller pad surface area.. the designers achieved brake bal..
using a supra tt front with ls430 rears just about duplicates supra tt front and rears which are balanced as a set.. so therefore it not only feels good it is actually balanced and working well but then again i knew that from the guys in japan that have using this setup for over 21/2 years
i know stoptech and your brambos etc have been designed specifically for certain cars but i could never understand how you can go from a 2 pot to a 6pot 355mm setup , still use stock rears and state its perfectly balanced but yet to justify the cost the fronts have bigger braking power , unless what howrd is saying is true that its not the trq value thats increased just the ability to disapate heat better for repetitive braking..
just my observation , and howard my offer still stands , i would be very intertested in trying a set of yours (i do my own installs) just to see if there is any justification for spending the extra 2500+ for the wow factor
03-29-05, 06:06 PM
#90
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There appears to be some very large misconceptions about brakes here. Our calipers do not have a fixed amount of brake torque. The amount of brake torque is changed for each individual application. A 355mm Lexus GS kit has completely different piston sizes than the 355mm kit that goes on a Nissan 300ZX. Both kits have the same size rotor, however they have different piston sizes, brackets, hats and lines. The caliper may be the same however the piston sizes are comepletely different. Therefore the output in brake torque is different between the two kits. This is how we maintain brake balance, by adjusting brake torque, which is done through different piston sizes. Now you might be thinking, bigger piston sizes are better. Not necessarily. Please see this link in our FAQ section. http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq14.html
There is a very massive amount if techincal information in our technical section as well as our FAQ section.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical/
http://www.stoptech.com/faq/
At least take a look at some of the topics in the FAQ section. There is more to brakes than you might think. Changing one thing in the system will have effects in other areas as well.
Some of you seem to think that rear kits will help with brake performance. There are a few reasons to go with a rear kit:
One is that the rear kit will provide more heat capacity. Since brakes on the rear don't do as much work as they front, they will rarely overheat. That gets rid of reason #1.
Two, It is easier to change the brake pads. Our brake caliper is a top loading caliper. This is a great feature for those that go to track days. I am going to assume that the majority of GS owners don't take their car to track that often. Even if they do, the rear won't overheat and performance street pads will be capable of the job. Reason #2 negated.
Three. It looks cool. Yes it does and that is a perfectly good reason to want such a product.
Now you may notice that I did not mention that a 4 wheel kit will stop better than our 2 wheel kit. Some kits bay stop slightly better, but the it's not going to be by a very large distance. Remember, that if the system is already balanced, like our front kit, or stock(which is usually pretty well balanced) then it really is up to the tires to get better stopping distances. Here is our technical paper about rear brake upgrades.
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...tter120601.htm
The phenomenon that you guys are talking about with the car pitching under braking has more to do with tires and suspension. If you have a stiff suspension, then the car won't pitch so much. Pitching is not a good way to figure out whether a brake system is balanced or not. Scroll down about half way on our technical paper about brake bias. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...erformance.htm You will see lists of what would influence brake bias. Notice the non-brake related items such as center of gravity(often associated with suspension mods), weight placement, and tires.
Another thing that I wanted to address was braking "power". Don't be mistaken by stiffness of the pedal. A stiff pedal does not mean that more brake torque is being applied. It would mean that there is less compliance in the system, meaning, less flex in stock calipers, lines, etc.
There is a very massive amount if techincal information in our technical section as well as our FAQ section.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical/
http://www.stoptech.com/faq/
At least take a look at some of the topics in the FAQ section. There is more to brakes than you might think. Changing one thing in the system will have effects in other areas as well.
Some of you seem to think that rear kits will help with brake performance. There are a few reasons to go with a rear kit:
One is that the rear kit will provide more heat capacity. Since brakes on the rear don't do as much work as they front, they will rarely overheat. That gets rid of reason #1.
Two, It is easier to change the brake pads. Our brake caliper is a top loading caliper. This is a great feature for those that go to track days. I am going to assume that the majority of GS owners don't take their car to track that often. Even if they do, the rear won't overheat and performance street pads will be capable of the job. Reason #2 negated.
Three. It looks cool. Yes it does and that is a perfectly good reason to want such a product.
Now you may notice that I did not mention that a 4 wheel kit will stop better than our 2 wheel kit. Some kits bay stop slightly better, but the it's not going to be by a very large distance. Remember, that if the system is already balanced, like our front kit, or stock(which is usually pretty well balanced) then it really is up to the tires to get better stopping distances. Here is our technical paper about rear brake upgrades.
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...tter120601.htm
The phenomenon that you guys are talking about with the car pitching under braking has more to do with tires and suspension. If you have a stiff suspension, then the car won't pitch so much. Pitching is not a good way to figure out whether a brake system is balanced or not. Scroll down about half way on our technical paper about brake bias. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...erformance.htm You will see lists of what would influence brake bias. Notice the non-brake related items such as center of gravity(often associated with suspension mods), weight placement, and tires.
Another thing that I wanted to address was braking "power". Don't be mistaken by stiffness of the pedal. A stiff pedal does not mean that more brake torque is being applied. It would mean that there is less compliance in the system, meaning, less flex in stock calipers, lines, etc.