GalantVR4

Guys, here's a little suspension primer for you all

1. Your car follows semi truck "grooves" worn in the road, and wants to switch lanes uncommanded.
ANSWER: Replace lower ball joints/control arms. With ANY car anywhere NEAR 100k miles or past it, they are shot..I don't care if the guy drove nonstop from NYC to LA and back, they are shot. Fronts first, rears last. For me, new bushings are a crutch. Worn out ball joints are FLAT OUT DANGEROUS! I've seen folks trade in or simply ABANDON perfectly good cars for this because the required suspension work was worth more than the car was.
Audi A4/A6/VW Passats are the same way..ball joints integrated into the control arm. Don't band aid them, SPEND THE MONEY and GET IT FIXED!
Oh, and here's a link to get both sides for right at 200 apiece for the supra arms: (cut and paste..sorry)

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...94&catalogid=1

Link should work..if not PM me and I'll get it to you. This is a pretty good price. The RIGHT one here on ebay is a bit less at $189 plus around 30+ bucks for shipping, so I think the trademotion link is a steal. If anyone finds a LOWER price on new ones, OR upper control arms too (note that the THIRD generation supras also use the same upper control arms on the front)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3579833&rd=1,1

but the LEFT one is $276 or so

2. You are getting strange camber wear, but you just got the car aligned and the tech said your tie rods/ball joints were fine.
ANSWER: He was either too lazy to actually throw a dial indicator on your lower control arms and MEASURE the play (required..there IS a spec) OR your UPPER ball joints are worn (uncommon but it happens), your control arm bushings are shot (common--upper control arm bushings shot will give you inside edge wear but OUTSIDE edge wear if you corner a lot, like in city driving, plus you might hear a CLUNK if you throw the car into a corner hard)

3. Pulling to one side while driving in a straight line. ANSWER: Toe is out of adjustment or loose tie rods. You can tell this by running your hand ACROSS the tread from side to side. If you feel like you're running your hand over a saw blade pushing IN towards the center of the car from the outside of the tire, you are TOED OUT. If you feel like it is a saw blade pulling your hand BACK from the inside of the tire towards the outside, you're TOED IN. Now some tread patterns will only show the wear by running your hand front to back along the tire, versus ACROSS the tread. This makes it harder, and it can also be confused with wear from poor balancing.

4. Tire is cupped or has flat spots in the tread, and you feel a shake in the steering wheel. ANSWER: Check tire balance FIRST. Then rotate that tire to the rear. If the steering wheel shake disappears, but now the back of your neck goes numb or your seat starts shaking, that's the tire balance OR a bad belt. Either way, you've isolated it to one tire. Slap on your spare and go get the offending tire checked and balanced properly. Also look for tape weights that have fallen off. (Anytime you break 100 mph and feel a new vibration anywhere, look at the tape weights first)

5. Car wanders around without steering inputs, but isn't pulling in one predominant direction, AND ball joints ARE KNOWN to be fresh:
ANSWER: If the ball joints ALL AROUND the car have been checked or are known fresh, steering rack bushings are next on the list (because obviously if you replaced all the ball joints, you had it 4-wheel aligned). You can also get this from worn control arm bushings, but it is usually more pronounced to one side or the other. You MIGHT even actually FEEL the wheels moving around IN UNISON and think you were driving an old chevy (non rack and pinion) car with "3/4" steering, meaning you had to move the wheel 3/4 of a turn to make the truck turn at ALL. This is because the rack bushings are essentially nonexistent, and the rack is just banging around in the mounting brackets.

6. Front tires squeal on a turn even though you're not pushing the car.
ANSWER: Toe is either in or out. Can also be caused by extremely HARD tires, SKY high tire pressure (Like using that air chuck at the truck stop without having a gauge-100 psi plus your car rides like a brick) Also tread pattern and road temperature is a factor. Asphalt at 150 degrees will act like gravel and allow your tires to slip as well (tires "feel" greasy when you turn)

7. Thumping sound, and you find a flat spot on a tire, (usually on the front)
ANSWER: Your front end hit a sharp edged pothole or debris in the road that caused a belt in the tire to tear away from the tire carcass. You may or MAY NOT see a bent rim, or pinch spot on the sidewall from the sidewall getting smashed into the rim. This seems to happen more on narrower tires, as the entire tire catches the chuckhole. Wider tires (like most RWD rear tires) usually manage to ride up one edge or the other of a chuckhole, avoiding the severe damage a front tire endures.

8. Thumping or "humming" sound at certain speeds, NOT variable by engine load/coasting.
ANSWER: On split driveshafts, the center bearing can thump on accell, decel, or steady speeds. However, most common when it FIRST starts to go is a harmonic at one particular speed that goes away. As it deteriorates it can sound like a wheel bearing going bad with ONE major exception. It will NOT change if you sideslap the car (rapid direction change like a slalom movement). Can also be universal joints in the driveshaft that need lube or are dying. The U-joints, however, are very tricky. Normally you'll get that PING sound when shifting from Reverse to Drive..but that can also be a loose pinion gear in the rear end too..but that is rare.

9. Humming or even a rather deep vibration, but NOTICIBLY isolated to one corner of the car. Goes AWAY or LESSENS in a slalom motion as you UNLOAD that side or corner of the car.
ANSWER: Wheel bearing, cupped or out of balance tire, or broken tire belt.

10. Grinding when stopping. This only happens when your girlfriend drives the car, or your wife. "honey, the brakes have been making a funny noise"..so you naturally ask "how long has the car been doing this?". The reply is usually "A few months now..but it stopped yesterday!" (meaning you now have no backing plate for your brake pads and your caliper puck is now grinding away at the rotor..lol)
No offense towards any women drivers here..but MY wife is clueless about cars and totally oblivious to strange noises..she just turns the stereo up to drown them out. For female drivers, a boyfriend might do the same. I had a female friend with a MINT Galant VR4 who let her HUSBAND drive it for a month while she was away on business. He changed the oil and torqued the filter like it was a chevy..and broke the oil/water sandwich cooler. Oil got pressurized, and THIS time, since the OIL was at a higher pressure than the coolant, he ran the car out of oil.. (she just had the motor built by Buscher racing and had a wild set of cams and a 20G turbo on it too..)
Needless to say, hubby was working 2 jobs until about 4 grand was paid back..PLUS he paid for a LEASED Vette until the repairs were made.)


11. Huge racket made when you go over stutter bumps, chuckholes, braking ripples at high speed, or simply rough pavement like a brick street. Higher pitched rattle, erratic, and annoying. However, steering is still tight, nothing felt thru the steering wheel or behind/seat (butt sensor)
ANSWER: Sway bar end links. While not as obvious as older american cars (like your prized 69 Pontiac GTO) which used essentially a pair of rubber bushings on either side of the sway bar end, a long threaded rod/bolt, a bushing or spacer tube that went between the sway bar and the lower control arm, and another pair of rubber bushings, with a few shock absorber sized washers on the ends and a nut, the new styles of "end links" still can make noise when they go bad. Essentially the same principle as inner and outer tie rod ends (two tie rods on a single shaft), these actually can wear FASTER than the older style depending on road conditions. You might notice more nosedive on one side of the car, a bit more body lean towards that corner, or a medium to HIGH pitched rattling. However, when you check the darned things, they feel tight! That's because of the downward pressure exerted on the end link when the car is on the ground. UNLOAD the sway bar and then check the end links. They actually wear quite fast.. Oddly, on some cars, the REAR end links wear FASTER than the fronts.

12. Now and then you're bound to get something off the wall that nobody ever noticed/heard/felt/whatever. Do these steps. LISTEN TO YOUR BUTT! If you're driving along and your steering wheel is smooth as butter but the back of your neck is vibrating and your butt is numb, your car is telling you something is wrong on the BACK END of the car. Driveline vibrations are tough to figure sometimes. I've seen ring and pinion problems manifest themselves as people swearing their front tires are out of line, but it simply comes from vibration being transmitted up the driveline through the driveshaft, to the trans, to the motor, and from the motor/trans mounts to the body..and the steering gear. (gotta love hydraulic motor mounts)

Most common problems on our cars though, can simply be traced to worn out control arms. Believe it or not these cast iron monsters DO BEND. I was driving in NYC two months ago and BOOM, blew a front wheel apart..entire center section broke out of the wheel in a monster chuckhole. Tire literally went skipping all the way down 5th avenue..bowling over people, bouncing off very pissed off cabbies, you name it. I am now the proud owner of one very well bent lower control arm and about 9 degrees negative camber on my left front wheel. Since you have to replace the control arms as a unit when the ball joints wear out, (upper or lower, front or rear) you don't have much choice as to replacing the entire unit or not. If ANYONE knows a part number for a ball joint that will FIT in the lower control arm with the correct spindle taper, let me know..I'll start a little side business rebuilding the control arms for our members..if I can get a few cores so it is a straight swap out.

400 bucks might not seem like a lot, until you find that the upper arms, and the full rear set are shot as well..THEN rebuilding might seem a wee bit cheaper. However, I don't see too many people burning out the rubber on a new set of supra control arms to install the Diazen bushings either..

If you decide to go with polyurethane bushings, remember that your ride quality will suffer a bit. I've got full poly bushings in my car, along with Tokico HP's and Eibach drops springs, and it rides like a TRUCK. I honestly wish I'd never lowered it now. SO my car will be getting sold this year and I'll be hitting ebay for one of those sub 25k mile 92's that you see about 7 times a year that cost around 12-15 grand. Heck, it is essentially a brand new car that cost $50k new..and we all know that it spent its life in a garage in sunny florida/name your retirement community, with a fussy owner and dealer only maintenance.
I'm 44, and my back can't take driving a 6x6 old MASH style army truck suspension anymore. On the track, yes, my Galant VR4 and S/C MR2 are pretty stiff..but my D/D VR4 is mint and bone stock with stiff sway bars on stock KYB struts and stock springs. (26mm rear sway though)

Dunno about you guys, but I'm very fussy about my cars. A squeak or a rattle will drive me insane, to the point of ripping the entire car apart. I had a new vette in 1984, and I had the dash out in the first week (winter) that I owned it to fix all the rattles and squeaks..2 sided tape and silicone in a caulk gun..and two weeks later, I had the only rattle, squeak free Vette in North America. Still a hunk of ...well..you know.

Hope this helps you all out. This was garnered from over 30 years of racing experience where a rattle is a BAD thing. And a distraction can kill you.

Dave

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

great advice, but I'd like to make some additions...

1. ) bad tracking - not only caused by loose/worn ball joints - also caused by bad alignment specs - toed in or out too much front or rear can also cause bad tracking, as well as extreme amounts of caster...

3. ) Pulling is rarely ever caused by toe, especially toe in the front... rear toe can cause the vehicle to walk sideways down the road, however, the reasons for a vehicle to pull on the road are due to whats called cross caster and camber - on north american roads, there is typically a crown to allow for water evacuation... to counteract this, we typically set the caster .2 degrees less on the passenger side, and same for camber - this simple comparative adjustment across the fronts is what typically causes a pull one way or the other...

there are options to daizen bushings - there are companies, even lexus that sell replacement bushings that are basically drop in replacements (well, press in at least) that retain OE ride (they are available on ebay and again, from lexus)

tttp5

iTrader: (1)

that was a great and very detail post GalantVR4! thank you.

now i have this problem., my car keeps pulling to the right even if i'm in a flat parking lot, so this problem isn't to do with the crowning of the road. if i let go of my hand in the parking lot the wheel will gradually settle at about 10 degrees tilted to the right. if my car goes over a bump and the wheel moves due to the car going up and down over the bump it will want to settle at 10degrees to the right too.
if i am flying down the freeway and have to do a emergency stop the steering wheel does not pull to any direction, it just sits dead center like what a car should do.

I've replaced my tie rod ends, both left and right side, I've replaced the steering bushing. the bushings all are visually in good condition. I have new tires that are balanced. I have done an alignment at lexus dealer after any suspension components were replaced.

Now can someone tell me whats the problem that is causing this to happen? there are no abnormal sounds from the car.

jimmyXthai

iTrader: (2)

i have the same problem, i have to hold the wheel at 11 oclock for it to go straight and when i let go it corrects it self to 12 and pulls to the right.

GalantVR4

You are quite correct. However, caster nowdays is pretty hard to adjust without bending parts or at least camber plates that will move both ways. Truth be told, I was going to mention what you said, but the post was already a monster.

Technically, you SHOULD insist that the car be aligned with the PEOPLE who will be riding in it most often SEATED IN THE CAR, or an equivelant weight in the seats, like sandbags, not weightlifting weights.

Might not seem that important, but in terms of the CROSS CASTER/CAMBER you mentioned it is critical, especially in a race car. If you normally drive with your significant other/bud, whatever in the passenger seat, and they weigh over or under 50 pounds from you, the car needs to have that weigh in that position when it is aligned. Thats the difference between putting a battery or two in a different part of the car, you know?

I know that ESPECIALLY in my MR2, I absolutely have to get it aligned with ME sitting in it. Otherwise, because of the short wheelbase, (and the stupid T-Tops..why toyota decided to make ever supercharged MR2 have a twist o flex chassis is beyond me) the car just feels "OFF" and it doesn't turn in as sharp as it can. ALSO, and this is VERY, VERY important, if you have a set of specs you want your car aligned TO, you'd better be in there checking his figures BEFORE he pulls it off the rack. WITHIN SPECS isn't crap.. My Galant VR4 came out with .5 neg RR, .9 neg Lr, 1.1 neg LF, and .8 neg RF..
Now on an AWD, All wheel STEERING car, do you think that did wonders for my handling? Especially when the caster was set (somehow, when I checked it) SIX DEGREES POSITIVE? THis, on a STREET CAR? Oh, but it was "all within specs according to the tech..and it was excepting the caster..I told him I wanted as much NEGATIVE caster as he could dial in for straight line stability for long distance travel..I do NOT want evil wandering turn in on a street car that gets driven 120 miles every single day when I'm bone azz tired.

Remember though that I just did a relatively basic primer, not something that would go to the track. I haven't seen too many FWD cars that "dogtrack" in the past few years, nor have I seen any RWD cars that have an IRS. Now a leaf spring car? Yep..TRUCKS? Yep..I saw one magnificent example, a "fix or repair daily" that was dog tracking so badly you could see the inside lip of the left front rim while lined up behind him going straight down the road. For the most part though, dogtracking on most passenger cars has been cured by IRS or FWD. Heck, on a FWD you could put CASTERS on the back and it would only make things interesting in a crosswind..

But it would be funny in a turn, and I'd love to do it to a japanese drift king to see how fast he'd adapt..lol

Now, the problem with the .2 degrees caster/camber has more to do with the state your in. Some states, due to the amount of rainfall they get, use a wee bit more than the 2 degree slope. That quarter inch per foot thing comes to mind here..plumbing stuff and the best, most efficient drainage slope?

Might be two degrees, but if the road is grooved, it seems a bit more. Plus when you figure in the AGE of the road, and if it is a SEMI TRUCK traveled road, then your .2 goes out the window, especially when the slow lane looks like a well curved woman..center hump being her chin... With that kind of road wear, especially in asphalt (which I really hate, even though it is quieter, because my tax dollars get to be wasted because they never re-oil the asphalt and it dries out and falls apart), the semi "ruts" are so bad that adding .2 to the caster/camber starts pulling you into the fast lane without moving the wheel at all. Rather aggrevating when you're beating the living snot out of your tom-tom navigator because you're on the edge of a regional map and it won't pop over to the next map..and of course you've got a major mid city tangle of off ramps coming up. (meaning your attention isn't where it should be.. I did find out that they frown on doing U-turns on toll roads in new jersey and new york, and navman AND tomtom got an earful from me too)

Dave

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

lord I am glad to see someone else on the board that really knows what they are talking about when it comes to suspension and basic vehicle handling / driving maintenance...

odd that we both come from the DIY DSM background....

MJHSC400

Well--

I guess I have to make a comment regarding handling --

Take another similar weight car for example-- A porsche 996/911 -- I think both are near the 3600 lb curb weight-- At least the models from the 96' era anyhow--

Now-- look at the tires on the vehicles from the factory-- 911's= 295's or 315's or something ridiculously wide out back-- 245's or 275's up front-- Their suspension geometry is also designed to compensate for this drastic change in tire angle due to the wide width under hard cornering-- Our cars are equipped with -- ehh-- 225's -- --------- ......................

I think our cars CAN handle quite well, as mine does-- but some adjustments need to be made when going to a wider tire to compensate for the tire roll during cornering, or your tires will "skip" on the small contact patch due to extreme tire angles with stock settings-- (I'm guessing here but it makes sense that this should be considered and addressed) --

I think a stiffer bushing should be considered with wider tires as well as a little more inward caster-- (whatever it is when the top of the tire leans in) --

I can throw my car around a short 90 deg sweeper with a slight tilt toward the apex at 50 mph with zero tire noise-- It can change lanes freakishly fast, and the rears will let go way before the fronts in a hard fast corner-- but still remains controllable and predictable-- I haven't autocrossed it, on driven it a bit to know how it reacts--

These ARE HEAVY cars with steering systems designed for comfortable driving, and the steering at least in mine makes it difficult to really push the car with quick and nimble control-- As the steering feels heavy-- I'm not a sissy either--

A BMW E34 has light, feathery, responsive, and SNAPPY steering in contrast, and you can push the car to it's outer limits and beyond-- You can define new limits for an E34 if you so choose-- The steering system is that quick, tight, and controllable-- And it won't wear you out at all-- My 535i, though slower, was far more driveable and loads more fun just because the suspension was so neutral and predictable-- the car feels like part of your brain they're so well behaved--

I have never driven an E46, but I've heard it's even better-- I couldn't even imagine--

I'd really be interested in trying out a Supra MKIV TT rack to see how they act compared to this one--

My steering system may be weakend due to a pinched hose on the bottom of the reservoir though, so it may be better after that pinched hose is replaced--

------EDIT ON 5/26/07------

HOSE REPLACED-- STEERING FEELS SLIGHTLY BETTER-- A noticeable improvement--

zegnaguy

iTrader: (1)

Rear End very Sloppy--- What could it be?
What is the problem and what needs to be replaced?

Rear end scary sloppy on my 93 sc300 NA -6spd. (Miles 245K) Noticable everytime you hit the gas semi hard. Rear of car immediately feels like it sloshes to the left then back right, side to side the rear wheel must still be going straight. Only evens out when you let off the gas. Happens at low speeds and highs even scarier.


History Suspension and Drivetrain work:
-All 18 oem suspension bushings replaced with Diazen poly bushings. Front, back, lower, upper, sways.
-Tein flex Coilover.
-Front Steering rack bushing done.
-Diff (4.27 auto no LSD) drained 300 miles ago before problem. replaced with oem recommended 80-90diff fluid. no gray liquid or shavings.
-Single solid drive shaft from 6spd to custom diff adapter.
-Looked underneath last night nothing seems to be loose.
-***I don't know if the control arms have ever been replaced to get new ball joint so most likely they are shot and I'm suffering in performance but not this bad of a problem could it?

When first installed 6spd this problem didn't occur it progressively started happening until really bad right now.


What is the problem and what needs to be replaced? What are the signs of axels/joints going out? Could it be the diff pumkin bushings wore out front or rear. wouldn't think they would cause this much flex more wheel hop if anything.

what kind of tests can I run to find out the problem?

Na-t comming next month so need to solve this before even more power than stock.

mr29rose

i hate that when im driving, i need to be very alert b/c any small dip or bump in the road send my car in random directions. i mean if there is a small dip to the lft, my car literally will turn the steering wheel left and its pretty dangerous.
i bought the car with the sc430 18 inch rims on it. but i dont know why thwe rims would cause this.
i mean the steering and handling feels very responsive when im driving smooth. i mean, i feel as if i can do a slalom course through cones spaced every 5 feet. i can zig zag incredibly. its very sensitive. but i think its too sensitive. i feel unsafe dribing with only one hand on the wheel b/c of this.

mr29rose

i wouldl ove to go to a sc400 meet and let a few people drive my car to see what they think. if its normal or not? i will also try to find another local stock sc400 to drive to compare it.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

not normal...

alignment and bushings can both cause this...

alignment specifically... if incorrect toe, camber, or even caster settings are used, it can cause this type of handling, yet still give good turning response...

JKAG

mr29rose

Probably need a toe adjustment to reduce the darting

Jon

stonewis

iTrader: (1)

Mine's okay. When I turn the wheel left the car turns left, etc! ;-)

sc250tt

u gotta hold the baby down man .its not a acura it's a heavy car .all 3 of my sc's did this ,i jus got use to it .with 19's is worse you jus have to get the feel of the car

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I disagree... alignment settings can account for this too...