al503

Your argument about cost/benefit is well-taken. However just like a set of HRE's can run you $5-$7K, a BBK can and does make the car look better IMHO in addition to the performance benefits mentioned above.

I was actually talking about the 8 to 12,000 K bulbs that give you the blue look but cuts down on actual light output.

Again, you point is well-taken. However, everything is relative. Everyone has their idea of what a waste of $ is. Your idea is just as valid as mine, which is just as valid as someone who buys a $50K Patek Phillipe (when a $50 Seiko would be just as accurate.)

al503

Quite right, 4T.

P.Williams

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't be so confident in BBK manufacturers R&D. I can't count the number of times I've read magazine reports where they've installed a BBK setup, and are left scratching their heads when they end up with longer stopping distances. Just look at past Sport Compact Car ultimate street car challenges where Supra TT's with stock brakes consistently outbrake those with BBK's. Are you telling me that Brembo, StopTech, etc. design an all new brake caliper for each application? They sure don't. They design a few different calipers (a 4-pot, 6-pot, etc.) and try to apply them to each different car. So, you've got a caliper that would be appropriate to an 12" rotor, then mate it to a 14" rotor thinking that bigger is better, right? Yet, A) there was no increase in brake pad surface area, B) you've got a larger heavier rotor that requires greater force to stop when spinning, and C) the caliper has been moved outward to match the greater circumference of the larger rotor, which is essentially spinning at a greater speed than the 12" rotor, again more difficult to stop. As already mentioned, a set of heavier aftermarket wheels will only exacerbate this problem. These systems might make an improvement on some economy car with single-piston sliding calipers and miniscule rotors, but if you're talking about a car like a Supra TT, IS350, etc. which is already equipped with a more than capable braking system, they'll do little more than put a hole in your wallet. I'm pretty certain that the level of R&D performed by Toyota/Lexus far exceeds that of the BBK manufacturers. I'm not trying to say that these big brake manufacturers are not competent in their field, but it seems they've realized what it is the public wants. It's not an increase in braking performance, but just looks.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

stoptech actually R&Ds for optimal brake biasing to help maintain or even decrease stop distances on upgrades if you get a car specific kit. Brake biasing is extremely important in balancing the caliper power on the front and rear brakes for proper weight shifting during braking to maximize the traction on all 4 tires. If you have too much caliper force on the fronts you are not utilizing the rear tires braking potential, therefore your braking distance will actually go up because of this despite you buying a BBK

And again it boils down to tires (which do a vast majority of real braking not brakes), which should be upgraded before a BBK, also do brake pads and see if your satisfied with the increased braking power

al503

That could be due to a variety of reasons.
1. Were the pads and rotors bedded in correctly?
2. What kind of pad was installed? Were they street pads that don't require a lot of heat to work or were they race pads that do (or anything in between?)
3. Were the lines and new calipers bled properly and completely?

You're definitely right about the number of different calipers that a manufacturer offers. It doesn't make good economic sense to make more than a few. With that said, the manufacturers can, among other things, vary the:
1. the size of the pad
2. the size of the actual piston(s)
3. the number of piston(s)

The stock Brembo brakes that come on the Z/G35 and the stock Brembos that come on the STI (and probably the Evo but not sure about this) have the same basic calipers. However, you can't switch them from car to car because the above characteristics are different for each. With more front weight bias, the STI will probably have bigger pistons with a bigger pad for larger contact and have commensurately smaller parts on the rear compared to the RWD Z/G.

There will always be someone who is willing to do something like this (or cutting a coil off the springs for a cheap drop) but I'm definitely not one of them. If you're going to mod your ride, do it correctly and responsibly for your safety and everyone else's.

Agree.

Well, for those of us who actually track our cars, it is for both looks AND performance.

Neo

iTrader: (3)

I think it is funny that you keep referring to your wife as your client.

Anyway, I think we can all stop talking about performance. I agree with others that pads, lines, and tires will go a long way towards increasing performance. BUT, no where in this description above did I see that his wife cared about performance. (The only thing to take into consideration is to not get a hacked together kit that will degrade performance.)

She wants a "pretty and unique ride" and the paint and sticker approach does not appeal to her. I don't see a problem with it. Look at Porsche. They have brake calipers that says Porsche on it. Is there a problem with saying "Yeah~ I have Porsche brakes."? Not to me but apparently it is for his wife.

She also wants Japanese products. This criteria alone eliminates a good amount of BBK manufacturers out there. You are down to companies like, Endless, Project Mu, Tom's Racing, and a few others that slips my mind. I am not sure if there are kits available yet but they will be.

If this is the wife's car and she has an objective, you won't change her mind. Figure out exactly what it is and you will probably end up having to get it. Anything else won't be a satisfactory compromise.

tonyxcom

I think thats relative too.

A few things. Nobody will need a BBK for autocrossing. Auto-x just doesn't generate enough heat over a long enough period of time to result in fade on damn near any properly maintained system.

Tracking would obviously be a different story. But I would like to here a competent driver's experience with the stock brakes with upgraded pads. At over 3500lbs, I see it highly likely that fade will come into play, but the majority of HPDE sessions last 20 minutes, so it may not be a factor at all.

99% of people out there with aftermarket BBK's bought them for the looks. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe people should be able to do whatever they want with their money. But when it comes to safety equipment I believe you should leave well enough alone.

I guarantee that if some company made aftermarket airbags that inflated faster bigger and softer but cost $1500 a pop that nobody would buy them. Well maybe if they had carbon fiber covers or something :P

al503

People spend a lot of money when they're on the go-fast crack pipe. $10K or more for a twin turbo with gauges, properly installed and tuned isn't out of the question. However, it's just as important, if not more so to have the ability to slow down.

IS350: ~3600 lbs.
Driver (Me): 240 lbs.
Instructor ~200 lbs.

That's a lot of mass.

With pads, ss lines, and motul in the lines, you should be OK. But, what if your not and you lose your brakes slowing down after the front straight? Insurance is expensive until you need it. Then it becomes the best money you ever spent.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

all i can say is you can always go better. especially with aftermarket wheels, some of them could be kinda heavy and the brake might fade pretty bad after long drive. for the record, i drove the is350 at the lexus event (30 mins after the even started), and to be honest i wasn't too impressed with the brakes, they are good but no where as touchy as i thought.

slotted and drilled rotors will help ventilation a bit, but to me they are more of a cosmetic. if you want the best cooling and weight saving 2 piece rotors are usually a must. and of course getting aftermarket bbk will give you even more stopping power in some cases, especially the ability to withstand brake fade after long drive

my gs400 has ap racing and my sc430 has stoptech. i think stoptech is good stuff for excellent price. ap racing and brembo are head to head as top i would think, though if i do it again i would probably give brembo a try

josephdoc

OK OK... my beloved friends here at CL!

First, about my wife/client:
I keep calling my wife as a client because I am a fulltime working adult and I have business clients who keep making special requests. I need to provide solutions seriously because they are my clients. Now my direct order is from my wife, who is looking for a good make up over her 2IS, and it is as important as taking care of business.

Second, about appearance & performance:
My main concern is about "bling-bling" factor, and again the driver won’t pass 75mph in any normal day. I am sure pretty brake kit that I am after right now will compromise both the appearance and performance.

Third, about other appearance factors:
The 2IS came with factory ground effect package (by Fabulous, my guess), and the high-end Volk wheels and Potenza RE960 tires are on their way.

In my opinion, adapting a pretty brake system is the same as putting up pretty wheels. I recall I never gave a thought that the new wheels will come with better performance in the past. Does anyone here really take consideration on performance issues when getting new wheels?


May the bucks stay with all of us!

Neo

iTrader: (3)

Some actually do. Some stay with 18s instead of going to 20s. Some spend the extra for staggered to get more rear traction. Some go with forged, light-weight wheels. Some go with a combination of the above.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yup, i agree. i know some people who actually stay with 18s coz' they want performance more than cosmetic. i personally probably put more on cosmetic, maybe that's why i have 20s

regardless, i can tell you i got brakes mostly with performance in mind FIRST, NOT cosmetic.

gs400:
stock wheels, going between socal and norcal, 350 miles. by the end of the trip i always found my brakes fading, and i had to brake earlier and harder to stop. putting on 19s immediately made bad into worse. deicded on bbk right the way. ap racing was the choice

sc430:
stock car brakes very strong, stopped very well. when the 20s came in and got put on i wasn't there and wife drove the car. the first time i drove the car after the wheels, i could clearly tell the brake couldn't handle the wheels well, and after 40 to 50 miles driving i could sense the brake fade. easily, bbk time again, and this time stoptech

al503

*raises hand*

I've pretty much decided on the Volk Progressive Spoke wheels in 18x8.5 and 18x9.5. They're a one piece forged design that weigh about 18 lbs each. (I'm thinking the stock 18"s are probably around 23-25?)

Regardless, they're not my first choice in terms of looks and size but the performance benefit will be good enough for me.