Stainless Brake Lines with OEM Brakes?
10-02-01, 09:01 PM
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Stainless Brake Lines with OEM Brakes?
I've read where most who do brake upgrades also put in stainless brake lines... I recently decided the next 'investment' in my GS should be a new Nav head unit to replace the factory stereo - thus putting of the new wheels and brake upgrade a bit. Plus I've got some new tires to wear out first.
My original brakes are about due for replacement and I'd like to hear from anyone who has used stainless brake lines with standard factory brakes. What were the results? Any issues installing?
Assuming this is a good mod - I know RMM and TRD make these... are there other manufacturers to look into?
Thanks in advance,
David
My original brakes are about due for replacement and I'd like to hear from anyone who has used stainless brake lines with standard factory brakes. What were the results? Any issues installing?
Assuming this is a good mod - I know RMM and TRD make these... are there other manufacturers to look into?
Thanks in advance,
David
10-04-01, 07:23 AM
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I have S.S lines on my Supra with the OEM setup. There is a noticable improvement.. The pedal stiffenes up, feels less mushy, better initial grip. I am happy with them. Also I had the system flushed with Motul 600 Brake Fluid. I would recommend either TRD or Goodriche lines. The price is around 250.... Not sure though.
DakaDan
DakaDan
10-04-01, 08:30 AM
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Thanks Dan, that's exactly what I'm hoping for.
I actually ordered a set from Steve Ganz that are supposedly custom made for OEM GS brakes by company called Impulse Racing. Will hopefully get them on the car this weekend and will post results!
I actually ordered a set from Steve Ganz that are supposedly custom made for OEM GS brakes by company called Impulse Racing. Will hopefully get them on the car this weekend and will post results!
10-04-01, 04:20 PM
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Yes, the stainless lines will give you better pedal feel ( quicker grab, stronger pedal ) because factory hose lines actually expand under pressure ( when applying the brakes ) . I too use the Motul 600 fluid with the Goodriche SS Lines. I know Stillen carries them.
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10-05-01, 09:23 PM
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Sinchan - same price for mine.
I'm wasn't planning on getting special fluid - standard stuff will work as well, correct? The only difference will be in quality of the brake fluid... No magic "you must use this with SS lines" stuff?
I'm wasn't planning on getting special fluid - standard stuff will work as well, correct? The only difference will be in quality of the brake fluid... No magic "you must use this with SS lines" stuff?
10-06-01, 07:22 AM
#9
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Dave - I did the same thing U're considering except that I had Mo cross-drill & vent a set a set of stock GS rotors for me - I'm basically happy with the performance of the stock brakes so I went for cosmetics. I also used the RMM S/S brake lines ( front only ) & noticed the same results as Dan & K did. I went ahead & switched over to the Motul fluid as it handles heat better & doesn't break ( HA-HA!!
) down like the stock stuff would under HARD driving. The stainless lines will work with any DOT 3 approved fluid like the factory SAE J1703 stuff or the better fluids like Motul. It's an easy mod & well worth the small effort.
) down like the stock stuff would under HARD driving. The stainless lines will work with any DOT 3 approved fluid like the factory SAE J1703 stuff or the better fluids like Motul. It's an easy mod & well worth the small effort.
10-06-01, 01:30 PM
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Sorry for the delay in response . . .
DakaDan,
I live on the Chain Of Lakes, work in Palatine.
Shincahan,
Mine took 2 and one quarter to 2 and one half bottles.
You do not have to use anything other than DOT 3, but the improved boiling / breakdown point of the Motul 600 was appealing to me.
I live on the Chain Of Lakes, work in Palatine.
Shincahan,
Mine took 2 and one quarter to 2 and one half bottles.
You do not have to use anything other than DOT 3, but the improved boiling / breakdown point of the Motul 600 was appealing to me.
10-07-01, 03:51 PM
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i can get power stop cross drill rotors 4 $460.00 est., depending on which lexus..i have a gs400 00. anyone interest in getting a group buy together for the cross drill rotors, and trd pads f/r, along with steel brakes lines. PM me.
10-08-01, 04:31 PM
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I had the SS lines installed last weekend. I haven't put in a lot of drive time and no severe stress, but I *definitely* did notice an increase in brake pedal stiffness. I was going to have brakes done at the same time, but the tech recommended waiting until next time (I'm at 30% left) - this gives me an even better comparison as the lines are the only thing that changed.
Will post more observations after I get some more miles under my... brakes.
However, there is one caveat I came across. My girlfriend was thinking about the same upgrade to her Acura NSX and did some digging with the NSX forums. Here's the feedback she found:
==========================================
Reasons To Avoid SS Braided Lines
[BDV] Well it happened. Someone in a Buick tried to terminate his wife's life and my NSX. I panic braked, downhill, at 35 mph and managed to stop just before my two year old Comptech stainless brake-line ruptured. The pedal went to the floor. The failure was right where the plastic support is near the caliper, which is supposed to stop these kinds of things from happening.
I remember the FAQ discussing this issue, and thinking it would never happen to me. Thank God it wasn't at the end of the back straight at Road Atlanta.
For all you our there with stainless lines. Beware. My braiding actually burst.
[DH] ...it turns out that my aftermarket steel braided line purchased 3 years ago (can't remember the vendor name, I got the lines from Rod Millen Motorsports) separated at the caliper. The line goes into a screw on the caliper which has a hollow fitting for the hose to go over, and apparently I blew it off the fitting.
[FG] [the lines bursting] is the risk that you take with stainless lines. Otherwise, don't you think all manufacturers would have made them standard? Among the BMW and PCA club members I talk to, most shy away from stainless lines unless they are religous about changing the lines every year or two.
[NM] I too thought that stainless steel lines / fittings were the important to high performance braking and was considering it too. After talking to Randy M. at RM Racing I was convinced this was not a good idea for a production car.
Randy told me he does not recommend these NOR does he use them in the RM Racing NSX. The braking and rumored flex are not affected by the plastic brake lines. He said that one person who had them installed had them come apart right after leaving the installer and was in an accident in their NSX. Maybe this is why Ferrari uses the plastic lines in their production cars too. BTW - I can not recall a single member on this list ever experiencing a problem with the plastic lines failing. A few have suspected (right or wrong) that some perceived braking problems were the result of the plastic lines - but that is another story.
I may not have all the details, but I bet if you private Randy you will get the whole scoop.
[HPA] My $.02 again (long winded as usual): SS lines are tough to a point and are a special application product (i.e. for racing and usually replaced between races just as tires are replaced regularly throughout a race). The SS braiding not only protects the "rubber" beneath from outside physical damage but also act as a girdle that lessens brake line flex (swelling).
On older OE lines with a partner applying the brakes I can see the lines flex, tense and swell slightly. The SS braiding lessens the amount of this flex and you notice it as a firmer pedal feel (fluid type contributes to this as well). They look good, last awhile, then once you get it out of your system you usually wind up going back to OE lines, unless track events are your life and you don't mind this short coming.
Remember, this race inspired product was invented to protect brake lines from track debris left by accidents the driver sometime has no choice but to drive through. The firmer pedal and faster piston actuation was a side benefit. The "look" is just that. If you want long lasting (relatively speaking) stick to OEM lines. If you want more protection and performance try synthetic cloth braided lines (if anyone is specifically marketing them for the NSX I don't know; if not, custom made by a fluid fastener maker is an option if you can find someone willing to make them for you). That last comment is an option not a recommendation.
If I wanted more protection I'd just place a plastic braided sleeve over the OE lines during a line change. OE brake lines are really good quality for what I've encountered under Honda's and Acura's thus far. If you drive hard and brake hard just inspect your lines regularly and plan on replacing them about every 2-3 years or whenever the fluid is recommended to be flushed and replaced. Might as well get the Speed Bleeder replacement fittings (www.speedbleeder.com) while you're at it and get some Motul or Lockheed fluid.
Note: Used to be that rubber composition allowed you to guesstimate the wear of various belts and hoses with warning signs such as fraying, cracking, mushiness or brittleness. New rubber composition still looks good past its recommended change interval. You wouldn't take a chance on missing your timing belt change interval and having the valve service
missed either, would you? That's a very expensive chance.
No matter how good (or excellent in Honda's/Acura's case) a product is the manufacturer recommendations are there for a reason. Some stretching of guidelines are forgivable by the car while others are not. Common sense should rule that no matter what go-fast improvements are made stopping should always be more important. With the emphasis there proper preventive maintenance is the key. Forums such as this help to fill the knowledge database when experience is unavailable.
=====================================
Any reactions to the info above? Do I just need to revisit the install with fresh ones in 2003?
Will post more observations after I get some more miles under my... brakes.
However, there is one caveat I came across. My girlfriend was thinking about the same upgrade to her Acura NSX and did some digging with the NSX forums. Here's the feedback she found:
==========================================
Reasons To Avoid SS Braided Lines
[BDV] Well it happened. Someone in a Buick tried to terminate his wife's life and my NSX. I panic braked, downhill, at 35 mph and managed to stop just before my two year old Comptech stainless brake-line ruptured. The pedal went to the floor. The failure was right where the plastic support is near the caliper, which is supposed to stop these kinds of things from happening.
I remember the FAQ discussing this issue, and thinking it would never happen to me. Thank God it wasn't at the end of the back straight at Road Atlanta.
For all you our there with stainless lines. Beware. My braiding actually burst.
[DH] ...it turns out that my aftermarket steel braided line purchased 3 years ago (can't remember the vendor name, I got the lines from Rod Millen Motorsports) separated at the caliper. The line goes into a screw on the caliper which has a hollow fitting for the hose to go over, and apparently I blew it off the fitting.
[FG] [the lines bursting] is the risk that you take with stainless lines. Otherwise, don't you think all manufacturers would have made them standard? Among the BMW and PCA club members I talk to, most shy away from stainless lines unless they are religous about changing the lines every year or two.
[NM] I too thought that stainless steel lines / fittings were the important to high performance braking and was considering it too. After talking to Randy M. at RM Racing I was convinced this was not a good idea for a production car.
Randy told me he does not recommend these NOR does he use them in the RM Racing NSX. The braking and rumored flex are not affected by the plastic brake lines. He said that one person who had them installed had them come apart right after leaving the installer and was in an accident in their NSX. Maybe this is why Ferrari uses the plastic lines in their production cars too. BTW - I can not recall a single member on this list ever experiencing a problem with the plastic lines failing. A few have suspected (right or wrong) that some perceived braking problems were the result of the plastic lines - but that is another story.
I may not have all the details, but I bet if you private Randy you will get the whole scoop.
[HPA] My $.02 again (long winded as usual): SS lines are tough to a point and are a special application product (i.e. for racing and usually replaced between races just as tires are replaced regularly throughout a race). The SS braiding not only protects the "rubber" beneath from outside physical damage but also act as a girdle that lessens brake line flex (swelling).
On older OE lines with a partner applying the brakes I can see the lines flex, tense and swell slightly. The SS braiding lessens the amount of this flex and you notice it as a firmer pedal feel (fluid type contributes to this as well). They look good, last awhile, then once you get it out of your system you usually wind up going back to OE lines, unless track events are your life and you don't mind this short coming.
Remember, this race inspired product was invented to protect brake lines from track debris left by accidents the driver sometime has no choice but to drive through. The firmer pedal and faster piston actuation was a side benefit. The "look" is just that. If you want long lasting (relatively speaking) stick to OEM lines. If you want more protection and performance try synthetic cloth braided lines (if anyone is specifically marketing them for the NSX I don't know; if not, custom made by a fluid fastener maker is an option if you can find someone willing to make them for you). That last comment is an option not a recommendation.
If I wanted more protection I'd just place a plastic braided sleeve over the OE lines during a line change. OE brake lines are really good quality for what I've encountered under Honda's and Acura's thus far. If you drive hard and brake hard just inspect your lines regularly and plan on replacing them about every 2-3 years or whenever the fluid is recommended to be flushed and replaced. Might as well get the Speed Bleeder replacement fittings (www.speedbleeder.com) while you're at it and get some Motul or Lockheed fluid.
Note: Used to be that rubber composition allowed you to guesstimate the wear of various belts and hoses with warning signs such as fraying, cracking, mushiness or brittleness. New rubber composition still looks good past its recommended change interval. You wouldn't take a chance on missing your timing belt change interval and having the valve service
missed either, would you? That's a very expensive chance.
No matter how good (or excellent in Honda's/Acura's case) a product is the manufacturer recommendations are there for a reason. Some stretching of guidelines are forgivable by the car while others are not. Common sense should rule that no matter what go-fast improvements are made stopping should always be more important. With the emphasis there proper preventive maintenance is the key. Forums such as this help to fill the knowledge database when experience is unavailable.
=====================================
Any reactions to the info above? Do I just need to revisit the install with fresh ones in 2003?
10-08-01, 06:50 PM
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hmm . . call me naive, I didnt know that plastic lines are available and may be preferred. I will need to look to see where his failure was at to better understand what happened.
10-09-01, 06:18 PM
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Shinchan:
Lexus dealer did mine, but I'm sure a reputable brake place would be fine.
Lexus dealer did mine, but I'm sure a reputable brake place would be fine.