SC400 Control Arm Bushing replacement
03-06-07 | 11:55 AM
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SC400 Control Arm Bushing replacement
I just finished replacement of upper and lower front control arm bushings. I offer comments/hints in the next 5 postings under:
A) General
B) Control Arm Removal
C) Old Bushing Removal
D) Prep Bores & Install Bushings
E) Reinstall Control arms
F) Conclusion
A) General
B) Control Arm Removal
C) Old Bushing Removal
D) Prep Bores & Install Bushings
E) Reinstall Control arms
F) Conclusion
03-06-07 | 11:57 AM
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A) Control Arm Bushing - General
A) Background/General: My 1992 SC400 has 190K miles and had never had any front end work outside brakes, alignments, and tires. Front end was getting loose so I decided it was time to rebuild it with control arm bushings (Daizen), new struts (KYB GR-2’s), and steering rack bushings (Daizen).
Searching web and clublexus.com I found 2 excellent pictoral tutorials on replacing LS400 control arm bushings as follows:
http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/suspe...daizenkit.html (with links to others for removing control arms)
http://www.lextreme.com/bushing.html
but I could find nothing specific to the SC400. Since suspensions are somewhat similar, I am only discussing omissions I found from those tutorials, additional helpful information, and issues of difference I encountered.
I recommend doing one side complete before disassembling the other side, instead of doing both at once. This provides a reference for you incase you forget which way the bolts go in (head or nut forward), etc. The ‘second side’ took about 1/3 the time of the first side after learning the tricks.
It’s a dirty job. I fully recommend using Nitrile gloves ($4.99 for 50 at harborfreight.com). Excellent feel, keeps your hands warm in cool weather, and after a full day, you take them off and you hands and fingernails can pass the Martha Stewart ‘ready for dinner’ test.
Be sure to have a full set of ½” drive metric sockets up to 24 mm. Mine are deep socket, but a regular 22mm socket for rear passenger side lower control arm nut is helpful. Breaker bar with extension also recommended.
Searching web and clublexus.com I found 2 excellent pictoral tutorials on replacing LS400 control arm bushings as follows:
http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/suspe...daizenkit.html (with links to others for removing control arms)
http://www.lextreme.com/bushing.html
but I could find nothing specific to the SC400. Since suspensions are somewhat similar, I am only discussing omissions I found from those tutorials, additional helpful information, and issues of difference I encountered.
I recommend doing one side complete before disassembling the other side, instead of doing both at once. This provides a reference for you incase you forget which way the bolts go in (head or nut forward), etc. The ‘second side’ took about 1/3 the time of the first side after learning the tricks.
It’s a dirty job. I fully recommend using Nitrile gloves ($4.99 for 50 at harborfreight.com). Excellent feel, keeps your hands warm in cool weather, and after a full day, you take them off and you hands and fingernails can pass the Martha Stewart ‘ready for dinner’ test.
Be sure to have a full set of ½” drive metric sockets up to 24 mm. Mine are deep socket, but a regular 22mm socket for rear passenger side lower control arm nut is helpful. Breaker bar with extension also recommended.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-06-07 | 11:59 AM
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B) Control Arm Removal
The bolts securing the brake caliper to the hub, and the lower control arm bushing bolts are MAJOR tight. Make sure you have a breaker bar with an extension to loosen.
There are 3 ball joints involved—upper and lower on the wheel hub, and tie rod. The recommended puller (OEM Industrial #25297 - $12.99 at Autozone) worked fine on the tie-rod ball joint, but jaws wouldn’t fit over flanges mounting wheel hub ball joints, so I had to get next larger size (OEM Industrial 25262 - $14.99 at Autozone). It was perfect for the lower joint, but bolt placement and angle of upper bolt made it very difficult due to size of puller. I tried but buggered up the thread on upper ball joint (repaired with small file), so I never did remove the upper joint. I just removed the Upper Control Arm & wheel Hub/Rotor as an assembly.
Put paper towel wadded up into hole for speed sensor in wheel hub so debris doesn’t fall into it while speed sensor is out. I put a plastic sandwich bag over sensor while it is out of hub for same reason.
Upper Control arm is secured to frame by one long bolt through both ends of yoke. On passenger side, I could remove bolt by just loosening splash panel and speed sensor cable bracket and slipping bolt past. But on driver’s side, the bolt hit the windshield washer fluid reservoir before it came out, so I had to remove splash panel and loosen reservoir to get bolt out. It is a pain that could have been easily averted with a little forethought by Lexus.
Be sure to mark adjust cams on lower control arm screws as suggested by tutorials!
There are 3 ball joints involved—upper and lower on the wheel hub, and tie rod. The recommended puller (OEM Industrial #25297 - $12.99 at Autozone) worked fine on the tie-rod ball joint, but jaws wouldn’t fit over flanges mounting wheel hub ball joints, so I had to get next larger size (OEM Industrial 25262 - $14.99 at Autozone). It was perfect for the lower joint, but bolt placement and angle of upper bolt made it very difficult due to size of puller. I tried but buggered up the thread on upper ball joint (repaired with small file), so I never did remove the upper joint. I just removed the Upper Control Arm & wheel Hub/Rotor as an assembly.
Put paper towel wadded up into hole for speed sensor in wheel hub so debris doesn’t fall into it while speed sensor is out. I put a plastic sandwich bag over sensor while it is out of hub for same reason.
Upper Control arm is secured to frame by one long bolt through both ends of yoke. On passenger side, I could remove bolt by just loosening splash panel and speed sensor cable bracket and slipping bolt past. But on driver’s side, the bolt hit the windshield washer fluid reservoir before it came out, so I had to remove splash panel and loosen reservoir to get bolt out. It is a pain that could have been easily averted with a little forethought by Lexus.
Be sure to mark adjust cams on lower control arm screws as suggested by tutorials!
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-06-07 | 12:00 PM
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C) Old Bushing Removal
I used the recommended “Fire” method—burned them out. One bottle propane (about $4 at hardware store) did both sides of upper and lower control arms without a problem.
Prior to burning out bushings, I secured lower control arm in a vise with 32 gallon metal garbage can underneath and “lit it off” (it takes some courage to set your control arm on fire). As long as you have about 1 foot clearance to anything flammable, you should be OK. The fire doesn’t really rage—more of a slow burn, but it does sustain itself after removing the metal center hubs. LOTS OF SMOKE – make sure you are in a well ventilated area if you aren’t outside. Burning is VERY messy, burned rubber boils off and misses garbage can—you stand in it and grind it into powdered carbon like material—big mess.
Upper control arm w/ hub/rotor: With upper control arm yoke flat on bench, I clamped a 4’ long 1 ¼” square steel tube I had across the yoke, so it couldn’t rock and I could move it if I needed when hot. I supported the disk rotor in the near vertical position by putting block of 4 X 4 behind it for the wheel lugs to rest on. This worked out very well.
The original Lexus “rubber” bushings are actually a sandwich. From wall of control arm bore moving toward center, there is a thin layer of rubber, then a steel shell, and then another thicker layer of rubber in to the metal hub. This intermediate steel shell was a surprise to me, but after enough burn you can just push it out—fear not, you don’t reuse it. On the upper control arm bushings this inner shell is flared, and so has to be pushed out in the direction away from the center of the yoke.
I was needlessly worried the whole control arm might get so hot it would warp the arm or affect the ball joint grease, but it wasn’t even close to a concern in actual practice.
The full removal burn takes approx. 10-15 minutes each bushing (4 total). No sense trying to hurry it, just wait until the time is right, and everything comes out easily.
The upper control arm bushing came out leaving the bores in relatively clean shape. Lower Control arm had considerably more debris. Use a blade to clean out whatever you can while the bore is still hot.
Prior to burning out bushings, I secured lower control arm in a vise with 32 gallon metal garbage can underneath and “lit it off” (it takes some courage to set your control arm on fire). As long as you have about 1 foot clearance to anything flammable, you should be OK. The fire doesn’t really rage—more of a slow burn, but it does sustain itself after removing the metal center hubs. LOTS OF SMOKE – make sure you are in a well ventilated area if you aren’t outside. Burning is VERY messy, burned rubber boils off and misses garbage can—you stand in it and grind it into powdered carbon like material—big mess.
Upper control arm w/ hub/rotor: With upper control arm yoke flat on bench, I clamped a 4’ long 1 ¼” square steel tube I had across the yoke, so it couldn’t rock and I could move it if I needed when hot. I supported the disk rotor in the near vertical position by putting block of 4 X 4 behind it for the wheel lugs to rest on. This worked out very well.
The original Lexus “rubber” bushings are actually a sandwich. From wall of control arm bore moving toward center, there is a thin layer of rubber, then a steel shell, and then another thicker layer of rubber in to the metal hub. This intermediate steel shell was a surprise to me, but after enough burn you can just push it out—fear not, you don’t reuse it. On the upper control arm bushings this inner shell is flared, and so has to be pushed out in the direction away from the center of the yoke.
I was needlessly worried the whole control arm might get so hot it would warp the arm or affect the ball joint grease, but it wasn’t even close to a concern in actual practice.
The full removal burn takes approx. 10-15 minutes each bushing (4 total). No sense trying to hurry it, just wait until the time is right, and everything comes out easily.
The upper control arm bushing came out leaving the bores in relatively clean shape. Lower Control arm had considerably more debris. Use a blade to clean out whatever you can while the bore is still hot.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-06-07 | 12:01 PM
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D) Prepping the Control Arm bores and installing new Daizen bushings
Scrape all residual debris/rubber you can out of bore with a blade trying not to score surface. Then I sanded with #150 grit paper to clean out residual rubber, and ‘polished’ with #360 grit emery cloth. Bores need to be smooth because Daizen design is for arm to rotate over bushing and bushing to rotate over hub, whereas Lexus design was to fuse the rubber to the bore and hub.
I spent 10-20 minutes on prepping each bore (4) and lower bushing hubs (2). New upper bushing hubs come with Daizen kit. This amount of prep was probably more than required, but I figured I only was going to do it once, so better safe than sorry.
Installing the new bushings was pretty straight forward. Daizen instruction sheet is very good. Be sure to use the nitrile gloves, as the grease is VERY sticky and messy to work with.
Contrary to comments in one tutorial, the fit of bushing in the bore was fantastic! Most I could push all the way home with just hand pressure. For good measure I used a 5” C-clamp to insure upper control arm bushings were seated. I had to hammer (with block of wood over bushing face) one lower control arm bushing home, but others went in fine. Excess grease from outer bushing diameter is skimmed off as bushing moves into bore, so I used that to grease face of bushing. There is lots of grease in kit—you don’t need to skimp.
Greased the hubs before installing them into bushings, and used 5” C-Clamp to push hub into bore. I was worried about locating hubs in bores, and whether it would fit with proper spacing on reassembly, but just pressing the hub flush on both sides of bushing made everything fit fine. I was VERY impressed.
I spent 10-20 minutes on prepping each bore (4) and lower bushing hubs (2). New upper bushing hubs come with Daizen kit. This amount of prep was probably more than required, but I figured I only was going to do it once, so better safe than sorry.
Installing the new bushings was pretty straight forward. Daizen instruction sheet is very good. Be sure to use the nitrile gloves, as the grease is VERY sticky and messy to work with.
Contrary to comments in one tutorial, the fit of bushing in the bore was fantastic! Most I could push all the way home with just hand pressure. For good measure I used a 5” C-clamp to insure upper control arm bushings were seated. I had to hammer (with block of wood over bushing face) one lower control arm bushing home, but others went in fine. Excess grease from outer bushing diameter is skimmed off as bushing moves into bore, so I used that to grease face of bushing. There is lots of grease in kit—you don’t need to skimp.
Greased the hubs before installing them into bushings, and used 5” C-Clamp to push hub into bore. I was worried about locating hubs in bores, and whether it would fit with proper spacing on reassembly, but just pressing the hub flush on both sides of bushing made everything fit fine. I was VERY impressed.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-06-07 | 12:02 PM
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E) Reinstall Control Arms
It is quite straight forward, but 2 issues:
1) The lower control arm is somewhat heavy, and is a tight fit. I did not chamfer leading edge of frame with file as suggested in tutorial—wasn’t needed but your experience may be different. I used blocks to support control arm and a pry bar to get it up into the slots. Not a major problem. As the Daizen bushing control arm design floats, you don’t need to worry about tightening bolts without having the control arm in the final position (car weighted) as cautioned in some web posts. Big plus! Be sure to line up your cam alignment marks before tightening. It still may not save you an alignment.
2) In reassembling the upper control arm & hub/rotor assy, the long bolt that goes through the bushing hubs has to line up with the hole in frame. It’s a blind hole when you try to feed the bolt through, and very tough to align. I stuck a large screw driver in the other side hub to approximately line up the hole, but even that didn’t make it easy. I had to refer to the other (as yet unassembled) side for the relative control arm/frame position. Then it was easy.
1) The lower control arm is somewhat heavy, and is a tight fit. I did not chamfer leading edge of frame with file as suggested in tutorial—wasn’t needed but your experience may be different. I used blocks to support control arm and a pry bar to get it up into the slots. Not a major problem. As the Daizen bushing control arm design floats, you don’t need to worry about tightening bolts without having the control arm in the final position (car weighted) as cautioned in some web posts. Big plus! Be sure to line up your cam alignment marks before tightening. It still may not save you an alignment.
2) In reassembling the upper control arm & hub/rotor assy, the long bolt that goes through the bushing hubs has to line up with the hole in frame. It’s a blind hole when you try to feed the bolt through, and very tough to align. I stuck a large screw driver in the other side hub to approximately line up the hole, but even that didn’t make it easy. I had to refer to the other (as yet unassembled) side for the relative control arm/frame position. Then it was easy.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-06-07 | 12:03 PM
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F) Conclusion
One tutorial rated the job difficulty at 8 out of 10. I would say 5-6 out of 10—easily within the scope of a moderately skilled individual. It takes more patience/endurance than skill.
I had called a couple of places for estimates to have the work done. Prices in the SF Bay Area (Feb. 2007) varied from $700 - $1200 not including parts but including alignment. I had seen some prices in web postings in the range of $350—that would be an incredible deal. I’m retired so I spread the job over about 4 ½ short work days (including strut replacement and steering rack bushings --neither of which were included in above cost estimates, but relatively insignificant when done along with this project). I did it more for the experience, knowledge of any compromises made (none), and job satisfaction than to save the money.
So how does the car perform upon completion? I am quite happy with the results. The steering has really tightened up and the car tracks much straighter. The ride, though a little more harsh because of the polyurethane rather than rubber bushings, is still very good. Hard to tell how much the difference is due to the bushings vs. the new shocks. Most of my driving is on pretty good roads so the overall ride degradation is quite minor.
I did get a full alignment/set-up upon completion, despite the marking of the camber cams. The actual difference in settings before and after adjustment was quite small, so marking the cams does appear to be adequate.
If you decide to give it a go, good luck.
I had called a couple of places for estimates to have the work done. Prices in the SF Bay Area (Feb. 2007) varied from $700 - $1200 not including parts but including alignment. I had seen some prices in web postings in the range of $350—that would be an incredible deal. I’m retired so I spread the job over about 4 ½ short work days (including strut replacement and steering rack bushings --neither of which were included in above cost estimates, but relatively insignificant when done along with this project). I did it more for the experience, knowledge of any compromises made (none), and job satisfaction than to save the money.
So how does the car perform upon completion? I am quite happy with the results. The steering has really tightened up and the car tracks much straighter. The ride, though a little more harsh because of the polyurethane rather than rubber bushings, is still very good. Hard to tell how much the difference is due to the bushings vs. the new shocks. Most of my driving is on pretty good roads so the overall ride degradation is quite minor.
I did get a full alignment/set-up upon completion, despite the marking of the camber cams. The actual difference in settings before and after adjustment was quite small, so marking the cams does appear to be adequate.
If you decide to give it a go, good luck.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
Trending Topics
03-06-07 | 12:09 PM
#8
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Joined: Dec 2001
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F Conclusion
One tutorial rated the job difficulty at 8 out of 10. I would say 5-6 out of 10—easily within the scope of a moderately skilled individual. It takes more patience/endurance than skill.
I had called a couple of places for estimates to have the work done. Prices in the SF Bay Area (Feb. 2007) varied from $700 - $1200 not including parts but including alignment. I had seen some prices in web postings in the range of $350—that would be an incredible deal. I’m retired so I spread the job over about 4 ½ short work days (including strut replacement and steering rack bushings --neither of which were included in above cost estimates, but relatively insignificant when done along with this project). I did it more for the experience, knowledge of any compromises made (none), and job satisfaction than to save the money.
So how does the car perform upon completion? I am quite happy with the results. The steering has really tightened up and the car tracks much straighter. The ride, though a little more harsh because of the polyurethane rather than rubber bushings, is still very good. Hard to tell how much the difference is due to the bushings vs. the new shocks. Most of my driving is on pretty good roads so the overall ride degradation is quite minor.
I did get a full alignment/set-up upon completion, despite the marking of the camber cams. The actual difference in settings before and after adjustment was quite small, so marking the cams does appear to be adequate.
If you decide to give it a go, good luck.
I had called a couple of places for estimates to have the work done. Prices in the SF Bay Area (Feb. 2007) varied from $700 - $1200 not including parts but including alignment. I had seen some prices in web postings in the range of $350—that would be an incredible deal. I’m retired so I spread the job over about 4 ½ short work days (including strut replacement and steering rack bushings --neither of which were included in above cost estimates, but relatively insignificant when done along with this project). I did it more for the experience, knowledge of any compromises made (none), and job satisfaction than to save the money.
So how does the car perform upon completion? I am quite happy with the results. The steering has really tightened up and the car tracks much straighter. The ride, though a little more harsh because of the polyurethane rather than rubber bushings, is still very good. Hard to tell how much the difference is due to the bushings vs. the new shocks. Most of my driving is on pretty good roads so the overall ride degradation is quite minor.
I did get a full alignment/set-up upon completion, despite the marking of the camber cams. The actual difference in settings before and after adjustment was quite small, so marking the cams does appear to be adequate.
If you decide to give it a go, good luck.
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billpopp (01-26-20)
03-09-07 | 10:48 AM
#9
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From: Nightmare on Elm St.
I just replaced my lower control arm bushings and this tutorial is spot on. I knew about the fire bushing replacement method, but couldn't bring my self to setting my dear on fire.
I chose to take the control arms to a local mechanic with a press for minimal $$$.
The job overall was a complete pain and I agree that the difficulty for novices is between 8-9 on a scale of 10.
Just make sure you have a breaker bar, a 19" MM socket with extensions and the 3/4 Metric equivalent.
Good luck.
I chose to take the control arms to a local mechanic with a press for minimal $$$.
The job overall was a complete pain and I agree that the difficulty for novices is between 8-9 on a scale of 10.
Just make sure you have a breaker bar, a 19" MM socket with extensions and the 3/4 Metric equivalent.
Good luck.
03-15-07 | 04:53 PM
#11
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Bushing Replacement Cost
I live in 408-norcal area. I quoted the job before undertaking it myself. I had estimates of $700 - $1200 without the bushing kit (Daizen kit was $100 + tax + $11.15 S&H @ TMEngineering), but including an alignment. It did not include strut replacement or struts themselves.
Call Todd at TMEngineering in Carson for estimate. I tried several times and never got a call back, but maybe you'll be luckier. He's probably done as many as anyone.
Call Todd at TMEngineering in Carson for estimate. I tried several times and never got a call back, but maybe you'll be luckier. He's probably done as many as anyone.
03-15-07 | 07:20 PM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: sc
Great writeup--
Just as a tip that will make it even easier, there is no need in "burning" out the old bushings to install the daizens-- Just heat the outside of the arm around the bushing until it's super hot, then the old bushing will slide out much more easily-- really, doing it this way makes this job easier by 2 or 3 difficulty points-- The burning out method, is messy, bad for you, and bad for the environment--
As far as heating the arm around the old bushing, when you think it's hot enough, just keep heating it-- when it's hot enough, you'll hear the rubber snap crackle and pop, and see a little smoke from where the rubber contacts the arm/sleeve/bore--- basically the place where the old bushing presses in will start to smoke and make noise, but without burning at all--
When this happens, it's time to start pushing a flat blade in between the sleeve and the rubber bushing-- and you'll notice it slides in easily, do this around the perimeter of the whole bushing, and it will be loose enough to push out with minimal force--
But always remember to remove the inner sleeves first before doing all this-- it's important to do it this way as it's much easier with the bushing in the arm when pulling the sleeves out-- Twisting the sleeve once well heated with some channel locks is the easiest way to pull them out, and they will come out with minimal force as well.
That pretty much sums it up, and take LS/SC's advice and do one side at a time--- This job will take you a while without a lift or any experience-- So if you're in school or anything you may only have a few hours at a time to work on it--
Oh yeah, DON'T forget to GREASE THE LIVING $%&$* out of these suckers-- and clean the surfaces very very well-- an extra 5 minutes here can mean a huge difference in the longevity of your grease monkey job--
Just as a tip that will make it even easier, there is no need in "burning" out the old bushings to install the daizens-- Just heat the outside of the arm around the bushing until it's super hot, then the old bushing will slide out much more easily-- really, doing it this way makes this job easier by 2 or 3 difficulty points-- The burning out method, is messy, bad for you, and bad for the environment--
As far as heating the arm around the old bushing, when you think it's hot enough, just keep heating it-- when it's hot enough, you'll hear the rubber snap crackle and pop, and see a little smoke from where the rubber contacts the arm/sleeve/bore--- basically the place where the old bushing presses in will start to smoke and make noise, but without burning at all--
When this happens, it's time to start pushing a flat blade in between the sleeve and the rubber bushing-- and you'll notice it slides in easily, do this around the perimeter of the whole bushing, and it will be loose enough to push out with minimal force--
But always remember to remove the inner sleeves first before doing all this-- it's important to do it this way as it's much easier with the bushing in the arm when pulling the sleeves out-- Twisting the sleeve once well heated with some channel locks is the easiest way to pull them out, and they will come out with minimal force as well.
That pretty much sums it up, and take LS/SC's advice and do one side at a time--- This job will take you a while without a lift or any experience-- So if you're in school or anything you may only have a few hours at a time to work on it--
Oh yeah, DON'T forget to GREASE THE LIVING $%&$* out of these suckers-- and clean the surfaces very very well-- an extra 5 minutes here can mean a huge difference in the longevity of your grease monkey job--
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wsaharem (03-26-19)
07-25-19 | 01:26 PM
#13
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Joined: Aug 2009
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From: CT
Hi guys... is TMEngineering still in business? 2 years ago they were prompt in shipping parts I bought for my 92 SC400. This monday I ordered Front CA bushings and order still states 'processing'. They haven't responded to my email either. When I call it is going to voice mail. Any thoughts?
07-27-19 | 08:35 PM
#14
Not sure if they (Daizen) are or not but my guess is that they still are. However TM Engineering have *always* been difficult to get a hold of at certain times. That has been a thing with them for several years now. They have historically tended to have their various bushings in stock in batches with some gaps in between stock availability.
As an alternative, if you need anything else ASAP take a look into whatever is on offer from FIGS Engineering and see if any equivalent from them is on sale.
But if you've already placed an order and they haven't responded in any way I'm afraid I've heard of this before. As far as I know they eventually will respond but they are not known for always being prompt about it, sorry to say. Daizen makes *good* products but getting them promptly in the USA has always been a little hit or miss.
Just in case it wasn't already mentioned in this thread though, the OEM front and rear LCAs on the SC's and MKIV's have ball joints that are non-serviceable, so if those are ever worn out there really isn't anything you can do but replace the whole LCA.
Aside, they are pricey but FIGS does offer their own aftermarket adjustable LCAs for the SC/Soarer/MKIV which have serviceable ball joints but that shouldn't be a consideration unless you really need those extra features and the overly stout build quality for a very custom suspension setup.
As an alternative, if you need anything else ASAP take a look into whatever is on offer from FIGS Engineering and see if any equivalent from them is on sale.
But if you've already placed an order and they haven't responded in any way I'm afraid I've heard of this before. As far as I know they eventually will respond but they are not known for always being prompt about it, sorry to say. Daizen makes *good* products but getting them promptly in the USA has always been a little hit or miss.
Just in case it wasn't already mentioned in this thread though, the OEM front and rear LCAs on the SC's and MKIV's have ball joints that are non-serviceable, so if those are ever worn out there really isn't anything you can do but replace the whole LCA.
Aside, they are pricey but FIGS does offer their own aftermarket adjustable LCAs for the SC/Soarer/MKIV which have serviceable ball joints but that shouldn't be a consideration unless you really need those extra features and the overly stout build quality for a very custom suspension setup.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 07-27-19 at 08:40 PM.
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billpopp (01-26-20)