How to eliminate ABS?
06-15-07, 10:49 PM
#31
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ABS? sold on it!
So there I was cruising at my "cruise controlled" 85 in western Idaho. The nite was clear and there was no moon. The road was dry and the temp was 55. I was thinking of picking up the pace as I seemed to be the only car on the road and the circunstance seemed to beckon to 110. Around a giant / gentle sweeping curve that didn't tax the suspension in the least at 85 and coming into the straight I couldn't believe my eyes....7 or eight deer were standing across the road like it was a meadow and they were grazing. At first I thought the road was completely blocked. Lots of things flow through your mind in a moment like that and none are printable here. It appeared that my only decision was which "bambi" I was going to sent crashing through my windshield to decapitate Wifey and myself. I stood on that brake as hard as you might imagine and at the same time noted that my lane was the only option as it had barely enough space to squeek through. The massive 12(I guess) point buck was standing with his head towoard my lane and I thought he only has to take a step and we are lunch. My Lex started making this thunderious racket of thump, thump, THUMP, THUMP, THUMP......, which I ignored and I actually steered through that "hole" in the heard. The car never swerved and it let me move over 4 feet after I started to head for the shoulder and probable death. I am pretty sure I would have been starting to go sideways if I had nonABS brakes and a deer and I would have violated a fundamental law of physics reagrding to things occup. a space at the same time. Stopping distance is shorter with ABS. I went through the gap at 45 at least...dead straight.
Mitsuguy always does this sort of thing like posting the authoritative chart from the most recognized expert ..... Well I made a copy of that chart and, so, now I have it too. LOL Thanks Mitsu.
IMHO, John
Mitsuguy always does this sort of thing like posting the authoritative chart from the most recognized expert ..... Well I made a copy of that chart and, so, now I have it too. LOL Thanks Mitsu.
IMHO, John
Last edited by JohnEd; 06-16-07 at 01:02 PM.
06-20-07, 01:10 PM
#32
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Is that really the best you can come up with? I have it and you don't so I know better?? Wow, I know kindergardeners that can make a better case.
1st, you have no idea what I do or do not own, nor do you have any idea what I have worked on. So, throw that illegitimate argument in the toilet.
I am quite aware that the brake setup on each car is different. That is the whole basis for this current line of discussion and the basis for my point.....the smaller 300 brakes DO NOT work better than the larger (albeit by a small margin) 400 brakes.
There was either something wrong with the brakes on your 400 or there is something upgraded on the 300. It's that simple.
Also, please try to review your posts as this one mentioned above is borderline incoherent. If you do wish to support a point, do so in an intelligent, respectful manner. This way, others can fully read and understand the points you are making. You will also need to MAKE a point, which you did not do, to support your belief.
I can make a statement that a stock Civic I own is faster than the new IS. Doesn't make it true just because I say so.
Tell me why the 300 brakes better. Show me details supporting why this is so.
1st, you have no idea what I do or do not own, nor do you have any idea what I have worked on. So, throw that illegitimate argument in the toilet.
I am quite aware that the brake setup on each car is different. That is the whole basis for this current line of discussion and the basis for my point.....the smaller 300 brakes DO NOT work better than the larger (albeit by a small margin) 400 brakes.
There was either something wrong with the brakes on your 400 or there is something upgraded on the 300. It's that simple.
Also, please try to review your posts as this one mentioned above is borderline incoherent. If you do wish to support a point, do so in an intelligent, respectful manner. This way, others can fully read and understand the points you are making. You will also need to MAKE a point, which you did not do, to support your belief.
I can make a statement that a stock Civic I own is faster than the new IS. Doesn't make it true just because I say so.
Tell me why the 300 brakes better. Show me details supporting why this is so.
i did not know a payroll employee know so much about brakes . your gonna tell me that something is wrong with my brakes or my sc300 was upgraded .comon man READ .IM TELLING YOU FROM EXPERIENCE .YOUR TELLING ME SOMETHING YOU PROBABLY READ nobody was disrespectful in any manner other than you SO IF I HURT YOUR FEELINGS SOMEHOW TOO BAD .now i can be a fool like you and carry this on but ive owned and drive both cars AND I CAN SAY THAT THE SC300 STOPPED BETTER THAN BOTH OF MY SC400 maby if you was getting some a$$ you wont be so up tight dude CHILL EVERYTHING WILL BE ALRIGHT YOU WILL GETS SOME SOMEDAY SO STOP TRYING TO BASH ON PEOPLE HERE
06-20-07, 03:30 PM
#33
i did not know a payroll employee know so much about brakes . your gonna tell me that something is wrong with my brakes or my sc300 was upgraded .comon man READ .IM TELLING YOU FROM EXPERIENCE .YOUR TELLING ME SOMETHING YOU PROBABLY READ nobody was disrespectful in any manner other than you SO IF I HURT YOUR FEELINGS SOMEHOW TOO BAD .now i can be a fool like you and carry this on but ive owned and drive both cars AND I CAN SAY THAT THE SC300 STOPPED BETTER THAN BOTH OF MY SC400 maby if you was getting some a$$ you wont be so up tight dude CHILL EVERYTHING WILL BE ALRIGHT YOU WILL GETS SOME SOMEDAY SO STOP TRYING TO BASH ON PEOPLE HERE
I would like to know how you judged "stopped better" actually. Did you measure it from the same speed on the same road? Either way, it sounds like you are making some not-so-qualified judgements on a qualitative basis... get me some quantitative proof, then we'll talk...
And just because one may have good brakes, in good working condition, doesn't mean that they are the best a car could have... there are dozens of different types of brake pads, different coefficients of friction, different operating temperatures and more...
06-20-07, 11:28 PM
#34
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rotor material?
Mitsuguy,
You mentioned that the rotor material could affect stopping distance, I think you did. I'm not arguing, really I'm not...is that true? I recently got an exceptional deal on rotors that were made in China. Had a funny feeling about them. Is it possible that they are inferior in some way? Haven't put them on yet as they are the BFB and I haven't been able to get rims that will clear.
John
You mentioned that the rotor material could affect stopping distance, I think you did. I'm not arguing, really I'm not...is that true? I recently got an exceptional deal on rotors that were made in China. Had a funny feeling about them. Is it possible that they are inferior in some way? Haven't put them on yet as they are the BFB and I haven't been able to get rims that will clear.
John
06-21-07, 06:36 AM
#35
Mitsuguy,
You mentioned that the rotor material could affect stopping distance, I think you did. I'm not arguing, really I'm not...is that true? I recently got an exceptional deal on rotors that were made in China. Had a funny feeling about them. Is it possible that they are inferior in some way? Haven't put them on yet as they are the BFB and I haven't been able to get rims that will clear.
John
You mentioned that the rotor material could affect stopping distance, I think you did. I'm not arguing, really I'm not...is that true? I recently got an exceptional deal on rotors that were made in China. Had a funny feeling about them. Is it possible that they are inferior in some way? Haven't put them on yet as they are the BFB and I haven't been able to get rims that will clear.
John
I was given the chance to look at a couple brake rotors under a microscope... What we found was that a premium brake rotor had more tightly packed grains of metal... this should be a stronger rotor with better heat absorption abilities... We also did a water displacement test - two seemingly identical rotors displaced less than 1% difference in the water, yet one weighed almost a half pound more... not that rotating weight is good, but to me, that means a more dense, more solid rotor that ~should~ have better braking abilities... this is kinda out of theory, but I think most will agree with those lines of reason...
another thing to watch out for is the vanes in a vented disc... there are many many designs of these vanes and some work much better than others... my recommendation - get the ones that look like OE (a curved vane radiating out from the center)
06-21-07, 01:47 PM
#37
grandma that doesn't go over 30mph around town will have a horrible braking experience with lots of performance compounds that actually need to get hot before they work...
same goes for performance stuff - endurance high heat compounds suck for autocross...
06-22-07, 08:01 PM
#38
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brake rotor material
Mitsuguy,
And again for the win! You!
I had a hunch. You had a microscope and a scientist.
Well, I just went out and checked my new rotors. You guessed it.....do not have curved rotor vanes....mine are straight. Got such a good deal on them, too. I know, intuitively, that the curved vanes would carry away more heat and the curved would be heavier and more costly to manufacturer as well. Too soon old, Mitsuguy.
We have a race way in Portland that is called "Portland International Raceway". You may have heard of it. Members of Cascade Sports Car Club reserve the track every few months and members go racing against the clock. Racing each other is not against the rules and you can only pass in the straight.....not in the curves. Fun, inexpensive(relatively) and educational. I will install these big brakes and at least give them a go with new Toy pads. That may give me a better time being able to go deeper. I intend to get a set of rims and tires to be used only for these events. Ride is not part of my choice criteria. What are the best 18 inch tires I can get within reason for this application. I know my SC400 isn't ever going to be a "contender" except betwen SC400's. I would even consider a stager if their is any serious advantage to it with my car. I may have added 35 or 40 rwhp (at best) with my unichip and exhaust mods, so I am basically stock. I have Bilsteins for the TT installed with their stock springs. I think the springs are sacked and my ride height is....1 inch between the top of the tire and the height of the fender looking from the side. The rear is even with the fender. That is lower than others I see by a bunch. Will that complicate my tire choice? You once suggested 18X8 or 9....still true?
Thanks for your posts..they are informative.
Does LV have a track that club members can access?
John
And again for the win! You!
I had a hunch. You had a microscope and a scientist.
Well, I just went out and checked my new rotors. You guessed it.....do not have curved rotor vanes....mine are straight. Got such a good deal on them, too. I know, intuitively, that the curved vanes would carry away more heat and the curved would be heavier and more costly to manufacturer as well. Too soon old, Mitsuguy.
We have a race way in Portland that is called "Portland International Raceway". You may have heard of it. Members of Cascade Sports Car Club reserve the track every few months and members go racing against the clock. Racing each other is not against the rules and you can only pass in the straight.....not in the curves. Fun, inexpensive(relatively) and educational. I will install these big brakes and at least give them a go with new Toy pads. That may give me a better time being able to go deeper. I intend to get a set of rims and tires to be used only for these events. Ride is not part of my choice criteria. What are the best 18 inch tires I can get within reason for this application. I know my SC400 isn't ever going to be a "contender" except betwen SC400's. I would even consider a stager if their is any serious advantage to it with my car. I may have added 35 or 40 rwhp (at best) with my unichip and exhaust mods, so I am basically stock. I have Bilsteins for the TT installed with their stock springs. I think the springs are sacked and my ride height is....1 inch between the top of the tire and the height of the fender looking from the side. The rear is even with the fender. That is lower than others I see by a bunch. Will that complicate my tire choice? You once suggested 18X8 or 9....still true?
Thanks for your posts..they are informative.
Does LV have a track that club members can access?
John
06-22-07, 10:07 PM
#39
stockish is not such a bad thing on track days - IMO, it's almost as fun, and is alot easier on things... but, our cars are not the most competitive things out there - they are somewhat heavy, and somewhat underpowered... still lots of fun to drive...
tires... hmmm... lots of things you can go with - however, this will be one of your most important factors that determine handling I was once able to do some back to back testing on a 60 second auto cross course... first was stock tires on a V6 auto mustang (the new body style) long story short, I was 14 seconds faster going from the stock BFG Traction T/A's in stock 15" size to a 17" Yokohama AVS Sport (now called the Advan Sport)... Then, yet another 1.5 to 2 seconds faster with Yokohama A032R's... Amazing the difference a tire makes, even on a short course... you might have a small spring issue, but these cars do always seem to sit a little lower in the rear...
tire sizing - 18x9 works all the way around, or you could always go staggered... 245/40-18 would work, 275/35-18 would work on the rear with 245's up front... or, if tire selection allows it, 255/35-18 all around... lots of options... you don't need to go too big - it can actually slow ya down a tad, and if you are going with a sticky tire, you really won't need much more than...
back to tire selection...
a good street tire will work marginally, but they chunk real bad and just overheat... lots of tires will be in between and usable on a road course, but may be expensive...
how good do you want?
tires... hmmm... lots of things you can go with - however, this will be one of your most important factors that determine handling I was once able to do some back to back testing on a 60 second auto cross course... first was stock tires on a V6 auto mustang (the new body style) long story short, I was 14 seconds faster going from the stock BFG Traction T/A's in stock 15" size to a 17" Yokohama AVS Sport (now called the Advan Sport)... Then, yet another 1.5 to 2 seconds faster with Yokohama A032R's... Amazing the difference a tire makes, even on a short course... you might have a small spring issue, but these cars do always seem to sit a little lower in the rear...
tire sizing - 18x9 works all the way around, or you could always go staggered... 245/40-18 would work, 275/35-18 would work on the rear with 245's up front... or, if tire selection allows it, 255/35-18 all around... lots of options... you don't need to go too big - it can actually slow ya down a tad, and if you are going with a sticky tire, you really won't need much more than...
back to tire selection...
a good street tire will work marginally, but they chunk real bad and just overheat... lots of tires will be in between and usable on a road course, but may be expensive...
how good do you want?
06-22-07, 11:33 PM
#40
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Good cents and good sense
Mitsuguy,
You compute so well. Really. I will not be a all out racer even if I got out of the SC. I like you theory about rapidly deminshing returns. I will go with 18 inch rims. I was intending on buying from the list of rims for a LS400 so I was sure to get BB fitment. I see rims for less than $150 and they aren't puke ugly so I will stay in that price range. NO CHROME! Your suggestion for somthing reasonably priced that is not know to be out of round?
I would like to go with the same size tire all the way around. $160 each is near my limit and I am not intent on spending that full amt if I don't have to. When I last looked into this a while ago I learned that some tires were "almost" as good as the really spendy stuff. As well, some of the "close" to the keaders were remarkably low priced. Kumho comes to mind but I know this industry changes rapidly. I would shy away from the top mark that only got 120 for tread wear as an example.
Thanks for your help. I am certain that others are interested in your opinion here.
John
You compute so well. Really. I will not be a all out racer even if I got out of the SC. I like you theory about rapidly deminshing returns. I will go with 18 inch rims. I was intending on buying from the list of rims for a LS400 so I was sure to get BB fitment. I see rims for less than $150 and they aren't puke ugly so I will stay in that price range. NO CHROME! Your suggestion for somthing reasonably priced that is not know to be out of round?
I would like to go with the same size tire all the way around. $160 each is near my limit and I am not intent on spending that full amt if I don't have to. When I last looked into this a while ago I learned that some tires were "almost" as good as the really spendy stuff. As well, some of the "close" to the keaders were remarkably low priced. Kumho comes to mind but I know this industry changes rapidly. I would shy away from the top mark that only got 120 for tread wear as an example.
Thanks for your help. I am certain that others are interested in your opinion here.
John
06-27-07, 02:24 PM
#43
For your application, looking at given alternatives, it seems to me the Kumho Ecsta MX makes the most sense. It's a great performance tire and handles superbly - minds it's manners on the track as well - we found them hard to over heat and wore well - granted, there are stickier tires, but in the price range and performance you want, this tire just fits...
edit: not to mention it can be safely driven to and from the track as well without worry of wearing half the tread down on the way...
06-27-07, 02:26 PM
#44
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Do you have a recomendation on who or where to get them at. I have a 93 SC3. Theres alot more knowledge on this board, and easier to ask you guys, and its less frustration for me.
Thanks for your help
Chris
Thanks for your help
Chris
06-27-07, 02:28 PM
#45
what are you trying to do - they do not make a car stop any better...