front suspension fixes and facts
12-20-09, 07:57 PM
#151
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So I origionally had really bad shaking at speeds above 60mph and it would increase dramatically when I was braking. I also had clunking noises when going over speed bumps and when turning the steering wheel. So I cam across this thread and decided to try out the Daizen front bushing kit, OEM outer tie rods, and OEM lower ball joints to see if it would cure my problems.
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
12-20-09, 08:07 PM
#152
So I origionally had really bad shaking at speeds above 60mph and it would increase dramatically when I was braking. I also had clunking noises when going over speed bumps and when turning the steering wheel. So I cam across this thread and decided to try out the Daizen front bushing kit, OEM outer tie rods, and OEM lower ball joints to see if it would cure my problems.
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
I have the bushing kit on order and hope to get that soon along with the other parts you mentioned.. Did you check the brakes? warped rotors, calipers, etc.. This could play a part in the shaking. what about the steering rack bushings? Those are supposed to tighten up the steering and be more firm.
12-21-09, 04:57 AM
#153
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IIRC the nuts on the wheel's should be tightend in a particualr way or something?
are you running aftermarket rims etc? could be worn brake discs which have warped slighty,your bolts could be slighty loose.
I've fitted the steering rack bushes,they transform that car!!! I'd get some of those anyway even if you didn't need them,makes the car that much better
are you running aftermarket rims etc? could be worn brake discs which have warped slighty,your bolts could be slighty loose.
I've fitted the steering rack bushes,they transform that car!!! I'd get some of those anyway even if you didn't need them,makes the car that much better
12-21-09, 12:40 PM
#154
So I origionally had really bad shaking at speeds above 60mph and it would increase dramatically when I was braking. I also had clunking noises when going over speed bumps and when turning the steering wheel. So I cam across this thread and decided to try out the Daizen front bushing kit, OEM outer tie rods, and OEM lower ball joints to see if it would cure my problems.
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
The install of the Daizen kit is a straight out pain in the ***. I'm a home mechanic, but relatively competent (engine swaps, maitenance, mods, etc...). The install took me 2 full days. The hard part of the install is removing the OEM bushings and metal sleeves for each bushing (total of 8). I used a hack saw, hydraulic press, vice grips, drill, and pry bar. It just takes a lot of muscle, patience, and luck.
The creaks and pops are now gone when turning and going over bumps, which was due to the ball joints. The steering feels much more direct and precise than before. But going over bumps you can definately tell that there is more vibration and noise transmitted into the interior of the car. It makes the car feel less like a luxury car and more like my lowered Integra. The shaking when driving above 60mph has been eliminated, but when I hit the brakes then the shaking comes back (but not as bad as before). It still bothers me that the car shakes. Any ideas what I should try next?
12-21-09, 11:14 PM
#155
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Not all alignments and the techs doing them are equal.
You need to be able to access all of the suspension parts to make sure nothing else is failing .
If you have pulsing under hard braking it comes from warped rotors, improperly torqued wheels and other bushings or arms allowing play so the wheels toe out hard.
It can usually be attained by a good tech who will not just dial in factory specs but see if you have heavier rims or other needs to attain properly alignment. Easiest thing is to start with dialing in mild toe in on both front wheels which will be compensated by speeds , weight ,balance and wear.
I didn't change my lower arm ones but I will be shortly as I can feel the wheels toe out at high speeds .
You need to be able to access all of the suspension parts to make sure nothing else is failing .
If you have pulsing under hard braking it comes from warped rotors, improperly torqued wheels and other bushings or arms allowing play so the wheels toe out hard.
It can usually be attained by a good tech who will not just dial in factory specs but see if you have heavier rims or other needs to attain properly alignment. Easiest thing is to start with dialing in mild toe in on both front wheels which will be compensated by speeds , weight ,balance and wear.
I didn't change my lower arm ones but I will be shortly as I can feel the wheels toe out at high speeds .
12-22-09, 08:09 PM
#156
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Im gonna try changing out the brake pads and rotors. Before installing the Daizen kit and balljoints, I tried to troubleshoot the vibrations. I adjusted the steering tensioner and it helped a little, but came back shortly and the wheel was overly tight. I also got an allignment and the shaking was still there. Then I bought new tires and had them mounted and balanced, but still the shaking persisted. So really the only thing that I havent touched is the brakes. I try that next and update you guys.
03-06-11, 02:05 PM
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I think I finally got my issues resolved, and thought I would post my experiences. Hopefully this helps someone.
I have an 02 GS430 with 115k miles on it. It is totally stock except for a torsen rear end (stock gearing).
Long Term Symptoms (I got the car at 30k):
*Light vibration - I have had this for along time. It was worst on cold tires, particularly at 45mph or 70-75mph.
*Occasional front end squeak - Remember the dish soap commercials that used to advertise 'squeaky clean'? It sounded like that, and was typically present only in cold weather when going over a large hump relatively slowly. I have a curb at the end of my driveway, and could usually hear it then on cold (for AZ) mornings.
Unsuccessful previous diagnostics I've had the car for along time, and along the way I have tried several things to fix the problem. All have had limited (at best) success.
* Unbolted the upper perch mounts, cleaned, inspected and retorqued them. No obvious problems found, no benefit.
* Disconnected the front sway bar mounts, cleaned, put in silicone lube, retorqued. Checked the drop links. Maybe some mild improvement.
* Visually inspected the front end multiple times (when changing brake pads, for example). Pulled on & visually inspected every component (when assembled). No obvious tears, rips, leaks or looseness that I could detect.
So, at this point I figured this was just something to live with. I have read all the posts on ball joints, but mine seemed OK and the 02s are supposed to be stronger anyways. My gas mileage was good (~20 in town, ~25 highway). Tire noise was low (Bridgestone Serenity) and wear was OK (50k).
Recent Developments Somewhere around 110k the car started to take a turn for the worse. Tramlining was getting to be an issue. Emergency braking was directionally unstable on rough surfaces (and not due to the braking system). The tires were getting to be about 80% worn, so I figured that was partly to blame. A couple thousand miles later, the above was even worse and the steering shaking was no longer occasional or mild. Upon further inspection, the front tires were cupped. I had not noticed this previously on tire rotations.
I came to the conclusion that the caster arm bushing on the driver's side looked a little suspect and replaced both of them. Upon removal, the driver's side caster arm bushing looked worn (hairline cracks, oval bolt hole). The passenger was fine. I replaced all 4 tires at the same time. Tramlining and emergency braking directional instability were gone. Steering vibration was gone. An alignment confirmed that everything was in spec.
The squeak was still there. I decided that I would check the ball joints. I removed them both, and there was no play in either. They both still had plenty of grease and instact (but deformed) boots. If I articulated them both, the drivers side moved more freely (and I suspect was outside the tolerance range in the service manuals - I do not have micro-torque wrench to confirm). I replaced both ball joints, and am now squeak free. The handling is the same, but the noise isolation might be bit better.
My conclusions
1.) At least for my car, the key problem appears to have been the caster arm bushings. I don't see this mentioned for steering wheel vibration nearly as often as ball joints, and it seems to be be a much larger contributor to the problem on my car. I also suspect that this is a dynamic problem, and one unlikely to be detected by an alignment or a visual inspection.
2.) I was told by several people that if you can't wiggle the wheel at all (when it is on a lift) and your alignment is OK then your ball joints are likely OK too. Mine may have still been serviceable, as the car drives no differently before/after. But, if you can't track down the squeak I would change them anyways (even on an 02+).
Now... onto my flaky navi ECU....
I have an 02 GS430 with 115k miles on it. It is totally stock except for a torsen rear end (stock gearing).
Long Term Symptoms (I got the car at 30k):
*Light vibration - I have had this for along time. It was worst on cold tires, particularly at 45mph or 70-75mph.
*Occasional front end squeak - Remember the dish soap commercials that used to advertise 'squeaky clean'? It sounded like that, and was typically present only in cold weather when going over a large hump relatively slowly. I have a curb at the end of my driveway, and could usually hear it then on cold (for AZ) mornings.
Unsuccessful previous diagnostics I've had the car for along time, and along the way I have tried several things to fix the problem. All have had limited (at best) success.
* Unbolted the upper perch mounts, cleaned, inspected and retorqued them. No obvious problems found, no benefit.
* Disconnected the front sway bar mounts, cleaned, put in silicone lube, retorqued. Checked the drop links. Maybe some mild improvement.
* Visually inspected the front end multiple times (when changing brake pads, for example). Pulled on & visually inspected every component (when assembled). No obvious tears, rips, leaks or looseness that I could detect.
So, at this point I figured this was just something to live with. I have read all the posts on ball joints, but mine seemed OK and the 02s are supposed to be stronger anyways. My gas mileage was good (~20 in town, ~25 highway). Tire noise was low (Bridgestone Serenity) and wear was OK (50k).
Recent Developments Somewhere around 110k the car started to take a turn for the worse. Tramlining was getting to be an issue. Emergency braking was directionally unstable on rough surfaces (and not due to the braking system). The tires were getting to be about 80% worn, so I figured that was partly to blame. A couple thousand miles later, the above was even worse and the steering shaking was no longer occasional or mild. Upon further inspection, the front tires were cupped. I had not noticed this previously on tire rotations.
I came to the conclusion that the caster arm bushing on the driver's side looked a little suspect and replaced both of them. Upon removal, the driver's side caster arm bushing looked worn (hairline cracks, oval bolt hole). The passenger was fine. I replaced all 4 tires at the same time. Tramlining and emergency braking directional instability were gone. Steering vibration was gone. An alignment confirmed that everything was in spec.
The squeak was still there. I decided that I would check the ball joints. I removed them both, and there was no play in either. They both still had plenty of grease and instact (but deformed) boots. If I articulated them both, the drivers side moved more freely (and I suspect was outside the tolerance range in the service manuals - I do not have micro-torque wrench to confirm). I replaced both ball joints, and am now squeak free. The handling is the same, but the noise isolation might be bit better.
My conclusions
1.) At least for my car, the key problem appears to have been the caster arm bushings. I don't see this mentioned for steering wheel vibration nearly as often as ball joints, and it seems to be be a much larger contributor to the problem on my car. I also suspect that this is a dynamic problem, and one unlikely to be detected by an alignment or a visual inspection.
2.) I was told by several people that if you can't wiggle the wheel at all (when it is on a lift) and your alignment is OK then your ball joints are likely OK too. Mine may have still been serviceable, as the car drives no differently before/after. But, if you can't track down the squeak I would change them anyways (even on an 02+).
Now... onto my flaky navi ECU....
Last edited by MJK; 03-06-11 at 02:11 PM.
03-06-11, 02:27 PM
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I'm aware. 
The reasons I posted were:
1.) I see ball joints mentioned much more frequently than caster arm bushings, and in my case the relative contribution to the problem was inverse to this.
2.) I personally have seen very few posts by people that I have replaced their caster arms (or bushings) before/without replacing their ball joints. I did, by about 2 months.
3.) I have seen mixed conclusions about how robust the 02+ ball joints are, and have not seen anyone specifically link the squeaking I had to 02+ ball joints.
4.) I think the more data points that are available to people with similar problems, the better for all involved.
Cheers.
The reasons I posted were:1.) I see ball joints mentioned much more frequently than caster arm bushings, and in my case the relative contribution to the problem was inverse to this.
2.) I personally have seen very few posts by people that I have replaced their caster arms (or bushings) before/without replacing their ball joints. I did, by about 2 months.
3.) I have seen mixed conclusions about how robust the 02+ ball joints are, and have not seen anyone specifically link the squeaking I had to 02+ ball joints.
4.) I think the more data points that are available to people with similar problems, the better for all involved.
Cheers.
Last edited by MJK; 03-06-11 at 02:35 PM.
03-06-11, 10:20 PM
#161
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Good post with great detailed info . wish more members had more factual input like that it really helps everyone with unbiased conclusions.
As mentioned the ball joints are not to blame they just have to take the load once the caster bushings are dead .
As mentioned the ball joints are not to blame they just have to take the load once the caster bushings are dead .
03-07-11, 07:51 AM
#162
I recently replaced both caster arms and both upper control arms on my GS. The caster arms were completely shot, the one on drivers side was being held by a tiny bit of rubber, I don't know how it didn't fall apart. The upper arms had crazy play in them. My mechanic noticed it when I brought the car for oil change and brake pad replacement. The play was so bad that my front tires started wearing out unevenly.
And with all of that I had zero vibrations or shakes. The only problem was that the car was beginning to "wander" around on uneven pavement, and I had to correct it with steering wheel - now the car tracks straight and the steering is a LOT sharper and more responsive. Almost to the point where I wish it was a bit more loose, lol.
Like I said before guys, the shakes and vibrations are coming from the wheels and wheels only.
P.S. After replacing both upper arms and caster arms, I didn't do an alignment. Its not needed, because alignment is only being adjusted by steering pulleys and lower control arms. My steering wheel is perfectly centered as it was before and the car doesn't pull in any direction. I swapped tires from front to rear, and going to be watching thread wear to make sure its even. I still have the snow tires on, going to keep them on until they fix the roads around here a little, after the winter they are all pothole ridden.
And with all of that I had zero vibrations or shakes. The only problem was that the car was beginning to "wander" around on uneven pavement, and I had to correct it with steering wheel - now the car tracks straight and the steering is a LOT sharper and more responsive. Almost to the point where I wish it was a bit more loose, lol.
Like I said before guys, the shakes and vibrations are coming from the wheels and wheels only.
P.S. After replacing both upper arms and caster arms, I didn't do an alignment. Its not needed, because alignment is only being adjusted by steering pulleys and lower control arms. My steering wheel is perfectly centered as it was before and the car doesn't pull in any direction. I swapped tires from front to rear, and going to be watching thread wear to make sure its even. I still have the snow tires on, going to keep them on until they fix the roads around here a little, after the winter they are all pothole ridden.
Last edited by Och; 03-07-11 at 07:55 AM.
03-07-11, 08:58 AM
#164
They could probably throw off proper alignment if they are badly worn, but once you replace them with new ones, everything should go back to the way its supposed to be.
03-07-11, 02:42 PM
#165
Adjustments have little to do with it because of the way the arms are all linked together. If one thing is out of spec, all the other things follow it. One can have worn bushings and still get an alignment and it'll look fine and dandy on the computer, but as soon as you fix the bushings, the numbers change again.
You would have to see the suspension to see how one affects the other.
You would have to see the suspension to see how one affects the other.