Adjustable traction rod question and some other things worth mentioning.
03-15-10, 06:29 PM
#46
Got everything installed except I was sent the wrong rear toe rods and I was missing one pair of strut boots. I don't know if I'll get a refund for the rods or get the right ones yet. I used the strut boots on the rear since the ones in the front weren't too bad.
OMG installing bushings is a time consuming PITA. I won't even say how long it took me. Biggest problems I had were removing the sleeves from the rear uppers and getting out a couple of the bolts on the front lowers. I could not get the sleeves to come out (rear uppers), I finally used an air hammer with a chisel bit. The bushings on the spindle for the rear traction rod also had to be chiseled out. Everything else, except the front lowers pretty much came out without problem using a socket and a tie rod puller type tool. I also had a ton of trouble getting out the rear bolts on the front lower arms. They were stuck to the inner sleeves of the bushings.
Struts and tops went in without any issues re-using my swift springs. The Tokicos are pretty nice units. I'm not really sure what to set them to though, guess I'll need to expirement.
I drove the car very breifly after finishing. Can't really comment yet since my alignment is WAY OFF. Pulling to the right bad and the wheel is way off center. I'll do my alignment tomorrow.
KC
OMG installing bushings is a time consuming PITA. I won't even say how long it took me. Biggest problems I had were removing the sleeves from the rear uppers and getting out a couple of the bolts on the front lowers. I could not get the sleeves to come out (rear uppers), I finally used an air hammer with a chisel bit. The bushings on the spindle for the rear traction rod also had to be chiseled out. Everything else, except the front lowers pretty much came out without problem using a socket and a tie rod puller type tool. I also had a ton of trouble getting out the rear bolts on the front lower arms. They were stuck to the inner sleeves of the bushings.
Struts and tops went in without any issues re-using my swift springs. The Tokicos are pretty nice units. I'm not really sure what to set them to though, guess I'll need to expirement.
I drove the car very breifly after finishing. Can't really comment yet since my alignment is WAY OFF. Pulling to the right bad and the wheel is way off center. I'll do my alignment tomorrow.
KC
03-18-10, 07:03 AM
#47
So.............
Did my alignment the other day, it was WAY off. LOL. Much better now although I think I'll mess with it some more later. For some reason I cannot get my front caster even close. +6 on the driver side and +5 on the passenger side is the closest I can get. Front camber and toe are within spec. Rear toe is within spec. Rear camber is right on the edge of spec, positive. I did not mess with the traction rod adjustments at all. Something I will do when I mess with it later.
I'm hoping that making the rods shorter might get my camber in the rear a little closer to 0. I think the closer I am the better traction I will have. I also think that making ther rear stiffer might actually help (or at least even out) traction since the camber shouldn't go so negative when launching. I also want to set the rear toe a little close to 0. Stock setting is quite positive.
All I can say is wow, completely different car. Gonna take some getting used to. Solid as a rock. Virtually no dive when braking. Very little lean when turning. I am very surprised on how it feels when accelorating and braking, huge difference. Feels allot crisper and more responsive to both. I had a few clunks which I always thought were in the drivetrain that are gone. I used to have a wobble when turning from a stop when the trans shifted to 2nd, that is now mostly gone. It doesn't really feel like it's squatting much when taking off although I haven't tried to do it too hard from a stop. It definately feels like it's taking off good though, more responsive.
Still playing with the adjustment on the shocks. Surprised on how much difference the adjustments do make. I started out with 3 on the rear and 4 on the front, this resulted in massive understeer. Then tried 2 and 2 which was much better. Best so far has been 3 rear and 1 front. I'm going to try 4 rear and 2 front to see what happens. Higher number is harder btw. For track use, I'd probably start with whatever I decide to keep it set at for street use and then maybe go softer on the rear if I can't hook.
KC
Did my alignment the other day, it was WAY off. LOL. Much better now although I think I'll mess with it some more later. For some reason I cannot get my front caster even close. +6 on the driver side and +5 on the passenger side is the closest I can get. Front camber and toe are within spec. Rear toe is within spec. Rear camber is right on the edge of spec, positive. I did not mess with the traction rod adjustments at all. Something I will do when I mess with it later.
I'm hoping that making the rods shorter might get my camber in the rear a little closer to 0. I think the closer I am the better traction I will have. I also think that making ther rear stiffer might actually help (or at least even out) traction since the camber shouldn't go so negative when launching. I also want to set the rear toe a little close to 0. Stock setting is quite positive.
All I can say is wow, completely different car. Gonna take some getting used to. Solid as a rock. Virtually no dive when braking. Very little lean when turning. I am very surprised on how it feels when accelorating and braking, huge difference. Feels allot crisper and more responsive to both. I had a few clunks which I always thought were in the drivetrain that are gone. I used to have a wobble when turning from a stop when the trans shifted to 2nd, that is now mostly gone. It doesn't really feel like it's squatting much when taking off although I haven't tried to do it too hard from a stop. It definately feels like it's taking off good though, more responsive.
Still playing with the adjustment on the shocks. Surprised on how much difference the adjustments do make. I started out with 3 on the rear and 4 on the front, this resulted in massive understeer. Then tried 2 and 2 which was much better. Best so far has been 3 rear and 1 front. I'm going to try 4 rear and 2 front to see what happens. Higher number is harder btw. For track use, I'd probably start with whatever I decide to keep it set at for street use and then maybe go softer on the rear if I can't hook.
KC
Last edited by KC95SC400; 03-18-10 at 07:09 AM.
03-20-10, 05:56 PM
#50
Ya, the bushings are great just a pita to install. Totally different car. It feels almost as solid as a brick.
NVH - haven't noticed any. I think harder bushings would probably have less NVH than old worn out rubber ones.
Roughness - well, it is a bit rough but I think the struts have more to do with it than the bushings. Even at the lowest setting I think they are firmer than the OEM Supra struts I took off, which IMO, are pretty stiff.
I tried 4 rear and 2 front and really liked the feel. I now have it set to 3 rear and 2 front but for some reason I think it rode better 4 rear and 2 front. 1 and 1 would in theory be the comfiest ride. I think 2 rear and 1 front would be the comfiest ride with the best balance. But I'm starting to like the handling with the firmer settings.
The on ramp to the highway that I take to get home when leaving work is a pretty tight 180 degree deal. I used to take it at about 30-35 max due to the car feeling like it wanted to roll over / squealing tires and such. Took it today at about 45 without effort. Almost no roll and no tire squeal.
KC
NVH - haven't noticed any. I think harder bushings would probably have less NVH than old worn out rubber ones.
Roughness - well, it is a bit rough but I think the struts have more to do with it than the bushings. Even at the lowest setting I think they are firmer than the OEM Supra struts I took off, which IMO, are pretty stiff.
I tried 4 rear and 2 front and really liked the feel. I now have it set to 3 rear and 2 front but for some reason I think it rode better 4 rear and 2 front. 1 and 1 would in theory be the comfiest ride. I think 2 rear and 1 front would be the comfiest ride with the best balance. But I'm starting to like the handling with the firmer settings.
The on ramp to the highway that I take to get home when leaving work is a pretty tight 180 degree deal. I used to take it at about 30-35 max due to the car feeling like it wanted to roll over / squealing tires and such. Took it today at about 45 without effort. Almost no roll and no tire squeal.
KC
03-21-10, 06:24 PM
#51
Went into work today and since the shop is closed Sundays I was able to mess around with my alignment without being bothered.
Happy (so far I think) with what I ended up with. You must keep in mind that my car is lowered a pretty good amount. Not only am I using Supra struts (Illuminas), which if I'm not mistaken is already a drop with the Supra OEM springs, I am using swift lowering springs. Not 100% sure of the drop off the top of my head.
Ended up with:
Rear camber -1.0 on both sides. Stock is -1.6 to -0.1
Rear toe about +0.05 on both sides. Stock is +.13 to +.33
Very happy with the rear camber, pretty much dead on. I had to use the traction rod(s) adjustment to get it there. To my surprise, the rods needed to be made longer to move the camber positive, I would have thought they would need to be made shorter. Cannot tell you the effect on caster since it can't be easily measured. I've read a few (very few) statements saying that the rods should be shorter for best traction but I went with what I could see. And, I saw the camber getting closer to 0 by making them longer. More positive camber in theory puts more tire on the ground so thats what I went with.
I have plenty of toe adjustment. I set it only slightly positive (way less than spec) only because it will reduce rolling resistance. No other reason. Kept it slight positive for stability.
Front caster about +5.0 on both sides. Stock is +2.0 to +3.5.
Front camber about -.9 on both sides. Stock is -0.7 to +0.8.
Front toe is at about .06 on both sides. Stock is -.05 to +0.15.
Caster is the best I could get it and better than it was. Cross caster is also much better since I was able to get both sides pretty close to each other. I'm not worried about it being off since the Lance specs call for +5.0.
Camber is the best I could get it. Likely can't get it closer to spec since I'm lowered.
Toe is never really a problem in the front. A little positive toe is always good IMO.
Felt good on the drive home. It was pulling a little right and my wheel was off center, both fixed although it does seem very sensitive to road crown. Tends to go slightly left or slightly right depending on which way the road is tilted. Otherwise seems ok and handles good.
I had also set the shocks back to 2 front and 4 rear. I'm not sure why but I like it the best this way so far.
KC
Happy (so far I think) with what I ended up with. You must keep in mind that my car is lowered a pretty good amount. Not only am I using Supra struts (Illuminas), which if I'm not mistaken is already a drop with the Supra OEM springs, I am using swift lowering springs. Not 100% sure of the drop off the top of my head.
Ended up with:
Rear camber -1.0 on both sides. Stock is -1.6 to -0.1
Rear toe about +0.05 on both sides. Stock is +.13 to +.33
Very happy with the rear camber, pretty much dead on. I had to use the traction rod(s) adjustment to get it there. To my surprise, the rods needed to be made longer to move the camber positive, I would have thought they would need to be made shorter. Cannot tell you the effect on caster since it can't be easily measured. I've read a few (very few) statements saying that the rods should be shorter for best traction but I went with what I could see. And, I saw the camber getting closer to 0 by making them longer. More positive camber in theory puts more tire on the ground so thats what I went with.
I have plenty of toe adjustment. I set it only slightly positive (way less than spec) only because it will reduce rolling resistance. No other reason. Kept it slight positive for stability.
Front caster about +5.0 on both sides. Stock is +2.0 to +3.5.
Front camber about -.9 on both sides. Stock is -0.7 to +0.8.
Front toe is at about .06 on both sides. Stock is -.05 to +0.15.
Caster is the best I could get it and better than it was. Cross caster is also much better since I was able to get both sides pretty close to each other. I'm not worried about it being off since the Lance specs call for +5.0.
Camber is the best I could get it. Likely can't get it closer to spec since I'm lowered.
Toe is never really a problem in the front. A little positive toe is always good IMO.
Felt good on the drive home. It was pulling a little right and my wheel was off center, both fixed although it does seem very sensitive to road crown. Tends to go slightly left or slightly right depending on which way the road is tilted. Otherwise seems ok and handles good.
I had also set the shocks back to 2 front and 4 rear. I'm not sure why but I like it the best this way so far.
KC
03-25-10, 07:55 PM
#52
Ran the 1/8 today. Posting the results here because I think the suspension work has to do with the results.
Not great conditions. Overcast all day and humid. Rained a little between the first two and the last two runs. Wasn't really into it, massive headache. Despite all this I ran better than I did the last time I was at this track. Also, ran more consistent than I think I have ever run which I think has to do with the recent suspension upgrades. Should also note that runs 1 and 2 were about 10 minutes apart as well as 3 and 4. Was about an hour between the 1st 2 runs and the second two runs.
In order - listed as 60 - 330 - 1/8 - mph -
1.802 - 5.197 - 7.969 - 87.982
1.753 - 5.107 - 7.852 - 88.829
1.747 - 5.104 - 7.864 - 88.184
1.750 - 5.121 - 7.898 - 87.586
The last three runs were VERY close to each other. My car never runs that consistent. The factor that normally changes the most is the 60ft times. I am quite happy with this despite not setting any new records. I wasn't really pushing as hard as I could have. I know I always say that. LOL. Had the rear shocks set to 3 which is quite firm and the front set to 1 which is soft. Was hooking without any issue, didn't break traction once.
I've been doing some reading on IRS suspension (on Vette forums) and it seems that everything I've done is moving in the right direction. I have noticed that about 90% of people agree that with IRS, the rear should be FIRM to keep from excessive camber changes and the front should be SOFT to allow for weight transfer. The car felt amazing. Hard to explain, didn't feel like it was taking off as good but felt like the reaction to taking off was much quicker. Did not feel like it was squatting at all yet I was hooking great on the MT's despite the crappy weather.
Only problem, I have a bit more noise (clunks) in the drivetrain than I did. I think it's the rear end, possibly the driveshaft. I'll have to check it out tomorrow at work, might just be my imagniation and/or the solid diff ear mounts. I'm always a bit paranoid after tracking it. I would still like to stiffen up the rear frame some but I just couldn't handle the noises I had with the solid frame mounts in place.
KC
Not great conditions. Overcast all day and humid. Rained a little between the first two and the last two runs. Wasn't really into it, massive headache. Despite all this I ran better than I did the last time I was at this track. Also, ran more consistent than I think I have ever run which I think has to do with the recent suspension upgrades. Should also note that runs 1 and 2 were about 10 minutes apart as well as 3 and 4. Was about an hour between the 1st 2 runs and the second two runs.
In order - listed as 60 - 330 - 1/8 - mph -
1.802 - 5.197 - 7.969 - 87.982
1.753 - 5.107 - 7.852 - 88.829
1.747 - 5.104 - 7.864 - 88.184
1.750 - 5.121 - 7.898 - 87.586
The last three runs were VERY close to each other. My car never runs that consistent. The factor that normally changes the most is the 60ft times. I am quite happy with this despite not setting any new records. I wasn't really pushing as hard as I could have. I know I always say that. LOL. Had the rear shocks set to 3 which is quite firm and the front set to 1 which is soft. Was hooking without any issue, didn't break traction once.
I've been doing some reading on IRS suspension (on Vette forums) and it seems that everything I've done is moving in the right direction. I have noticed that about 90% of people agree that with IRS, the rear should be FIRM to keep from excessive camber changes and the front should be SOFT to allow for weight transfer. The car felt amazing. Hard to explain, didn't feel like it was taking off as good but felt like the reaction to taking off was much quicker. Did not feel like it was squatting at all yet I was hooking great on the MT's despite the crappy weather.
Only problem, I have a bit more noise (clunks) in the drivetrain than I did. I think it's the rear end, possibly the driveshaft. I'll have to check it out tomorrow at work, might just be my imagniation and/or the solid diff ear mounts. I'm always a bit paranoid after tracking it. I would still like to stiffen up the rear frame some but I just couldn't handle the noises I had with the solid frame mounts in place.
KC
Last edited by KC95SC400; 03-25-10 at 07:58 PM.
03-26-10, 04:28 AM
#53
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Sounds like all your work may pay off. Now lets compile the list of everything you put on. I have been browsing back thru here trying to sort it out.
Megan Racing adjustable traction rods
Prothane front and rear control arm kits
Prothane front and rear sway bar bushings
Front and rear sway bar links
steering rack bushings
solid collars for the differential ear mounts
Is that about it or am I missing some stuff? What is the total cost for all the parts?
Megan Racing adjustable traction rods
Prothane front and rear control arm kits
Prothane front and rear sway bar bushings
Front and rear sway bar links
steering rack bushings
solid collars for the differential ear mounts
Is that about it or am I missing some stuff? What is the total cost for all the parts?
03-26-10, 05:18 AM
#54
Front and rear Tokico Illumina struts.
Front MK4 strut tops.
Tokico rear strut tops.
I think that is it. Not sure how much I spent, I don't like to keep track. I feel better not knowing. The most expensive stuff was the shocks though.
KC
Front MK4 strut tops.
Tokico rear strut tops.
I think that is it. Not sure how much I spent, I don't like to keep track. I feel better not knowing. The most expensive stuff was the shocks though.
KC
Sounds like all your work may pay off. Now lets compile the list of everything you put on. I have been browsing back thru here trying to sort it out.
Megan Racing adjustable traction rods
Prothane front and rear control arm kits
Prothane front and rear sway bar bushings
Front and rear sway bar links
steering rack bushings
solid collars for the differential ear mounts
Is that about it or am I missing some stuff? What is the total cost for all the parts?
Megan Racing adjustable traction rods
Prothane front and rear control arm kits
Prothane front and rear sway bar bushings
Front and rear sway bar links
steering rack bushings
solid collars for the differential ear mounts
Is that about it or am I missing some stuff? What is the total cost for all the parts?
04-01-10, 08:16 PM
#55
Ran the 1/4 last night. 1st 2 runs had crappy 60fts and it bogged a little on the second run. I had read that too much weight transfer can cause bogging at launch.
Had the rear set to 3 and the front to 1. Stiffened it up a little, 4 rear and 2 front and was freakin amazed. Went from 1.9's to 1.7's instantly!
Didn't stay long enough to try 5 in the rear, maybe next time.
KC
Had the rear set to 3 and the front to 1. Stiffened it up a little, 4 rear and 2 front and was freakin amazed. Went from 1.9's to 1.7's instantly!
Didn't stay long enough to try 5 in the rear, maybe next time.
KC
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