Dealer refusing to do TSIB update on F sport springs?
10-25-10, 06:43 AM
#16
When there is a warranty on something, it's there to fix something in case it breaks in a specific amount of time.
When there is a TSIB on something, it's acknowledged that there is a problem with something being that it was incorrectly manufactured.
When there is a recall on something, it's acknowledged that there is a problem with something being that it was incorrectly manufactured. Difference is, it may be a major detrimental issue that can affect safety and/or it may be a problem for a LARGE group of people.
So now that we got that worked out, being that gen 1 F sport springs are on a minimal amount of vehicles in the grand scheme of things, a recall was not needed and would be hard to trace anyway. So they released a TSIB. It shouldn't matter who/when they were installed. If the signs and symptoms are the same AND they were installed correctly, then they should be taken care of. If they don't want to eat the labor, FINE, then replace the springs over the counter.
When there is a TSIB on something, it's acknowledged that there is a problem with something being that it was incorrectly manufactured.
When there is a recall on something, it's acknowledged that there is a problem with something being that it was incorrectly manufactured. Difference is, it may be a major detrimental issue that can affect safety and/or it may be a problem for a LARGE group of people.
So now that we got that worked out, being that gen 1 F sport springs are on a minimal amount of vehicles in the grand scheme of things, a recall was not needed and would be hard to trace anyway. So they released a TSIB. It shouldn't matter who/when they were installed. If the signs and symptoms are the same AND they were installed correctly, then they should be taken care of. If they don't want to eat the labor, FINE, then replace the springs over the counter.
Except your definition of TSIB is incorrect. Thus all your conclusions that follow from it are incorrect as well.
For example the brake dust TSIB. There's nothing whatsoever "incorrectly manufactured" about the high-dust pads that will be replaced within warranty for free BUT ARE NOT REPLACED IF WARRANTY IS UP. The high dust pads are not only properly manufactured, they remained the standard pad for years after the first TSIB, and you can still buy them from Lexus today. Some customers simply disliked the dust.
A TSIB does not by definition indicate a manufacturing defect.
It can in some cases.
In others it indicates essentially a courtesy repair that is covered ONLY UNDER WARRANTY if a customer has a specific complaint.
In still other cases all it does is update or clarify a dealer procedure and is just informational.
The important part in any of the above cases though is that TSIBs only apply during the warranty period.
(Recalls on the other hand apply outside the warranty period)
Last edited by Kurtz; 10-25-10 at 06:46 AM.
10-25-10, 08:11 AM
#17
Problem is, if they weren't installed by a Lexus dealer, and he bought them second hand and they're more than a 1 year old total, they have no warranty on them at all.
Hence the dealer isn't obligated to do anything for him at all, even provide the new parts for free if he covers the labor.... unless this TSIB is different from all others I've seen where they only apply if under warranty.
If the springs are less than a year old but not Lexus-installed then they'd be obligated to give him replacement parts, but not cover the labor cost.
Hence the dealer isn't obligated to do anything for him at all, even provide the new parts for free if he covers the labor.... unless this TSIB is different from all others I've seen where they only apply if under warranty.
If the springs are less than a year old but not Lexus-installed then they'd be obligated to give him replacement parts, but not cover the labor cost.
10-25-10, 10:17 AM
#18
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Yes, recalls are covered regardless of the installer (almost always the manufacturer) or the year. If I remember correctly, recalls in the USA have to first go through the Department of Transportation so it is very serious business if something needs to be recalled. TSIB's are completely different as these are internal.
10-25-10, 10:37 AM
#19
Yeah, generally a safety recall is done for free for however long the recall campaign is open, regardless of the warranty status of the vehicle.
But unfortunately for the original poster "my springs are noisy" isn't a safety recall (or any sort of recall).
But unfortunately for the original poster "my springs are noisy" isn't a safety recall (or any sort of recall).
10-25-10, 02:24 PM
#21
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I'm taking the dealer and lexus to small claims court. I'm going to provide a letter from lexus "respectively declining to warranty said issue along with the TSIB letter acknowledging the problem", The TSIB, and pictures of the old part number on the springs. If the court denies me then I'll give up and never buy another Lexus or Toyota vehicle again.
MY springs are NOT installed incorrectly and they're sold by Lexus FOR my car. It's a customer satisfaction issue and if Lexus won't stand behind Their products installed on Their car then I cannot ever own another one. Lexus mechanics are not the only mechanics that can install springs so the fact that Lexus mechanics didn't install them is regardless. This has NOTHING to do with my factory warranty. It has to do with Lexus standing behind the product they sell. I'm almost 100% positive mercedes would stand behind their car. I'm sick of dealers only wielding warranties as a tool to influence you to buy overpriced cars from them.
MY springs are NOT installed incorrectly and they're sold by Lexus FOR my car. It's a customer satisfaction issue and if Lexus won't stand behind Their products installed on Their car then I cannot ever own another one. Lexus mechanics are not the only mechanics that can install springs so the fact that Lexus mechanics didn't install them is regardless. This has NOTHING to do with my factory warranty. It has to do with Lexus standing behind the product they sell. I'm almost 100% positive mercedes would stand behind their car. I'm sick of dealers only wielding warranties as a tool to influence you to buy overpriced cars from them.
Last edited by ScKcBc; 10-25-10 at 02:30 PM.
10-25-10, 02:46 PM
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ScKcBc, I can feel for you as the consumer that you are being rung around, and you do have good reasons to get the new springs if what you are saying is true in your case. From Lexus and the dealer point of view though, I can them understand them having a warranty date, and a warranty extension if installed at their own premises. There are a lot of reasons why they would do this (fraud, abuse, etc...), but the point is that you didn't fit the black and white criteria. This is where a case to case bases comes in, and unfortunately again, the dealership decided not to cover you. Taking all of this into account, Lexus and Toyota are not the only ones that have these policies nor these problems and stories. In reality, no offense, every manufacturer and dealership has done this.
I'm curious of how far up you have gone through the dealership? I had a problem with paint scratches when I first got my car. I got a free detail since the dealership thought they could buff it out, I came back and they found out it was under the clearcoat. The sales manager approved autobody work, he was fired/left a week later, another sales manager denied the work even after the paperwork went through, I went to the dealership immediately and fortunately enough, the VP was manning the sales desk. He listened to the service tech (not the sales manager), thought for maybe 2 seconds after listening quitely, approved the work and shook my hand. Moral of the story was that if one person says no, go to his boss.
I'm curious of how far up you have gone through the dealership? I had a problem with paint scratches when I first got my car. I got a free detail since the dealership thought they could buff it out, I came back and they found out it was under the clearcoat. The sales manager approved autobody work, he was fired/left a week later, another sales manager denied the work even after the paperwork went through, I went to the dealership immediately and fortunately enough, the VP was manning the sales desk. He listened to the service tech (not the sales manager), thought for maybe 2 seconds after listening quitely, approved the work and shook my hand. Moral of the story was that if one person says no, go to his boss.
Last edited by Raralith; 10-25-10 at 02:50 PM.
10-25-10, 03:09 PM
#23
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I'm already dealing with lexus corporate who is supporting the decision to deny me. I'm awaiting a call back from lexus corporate and the customer relations manager at the dealership tomorrow. This is not a warranty issue on my car, it's a warranty issue on their product.
If you buy a Samsung TV and 1.5 years later, they issued a TSIB for faulty remote controls, they would replace your remote, whether you had a receipt for the TV or not. They would have an exchange program where you could ship your remote in, or maybe you lay out the $ up front and when they receive your old remote back, they issue a credit.
I have Lexus Products on my car because they're supposed to be backed. If Eibach, H&R, Tanabe, etc... made springs, then deemed that some people had issues with them, they would replace them. Why is Lexus any different? They're not, and let a judge tell me I'm wrong.
This isn't my first runaround with a dealer. I had a mitsu dealer SCREW me out of just under $5000 about 6.5 years ago after they broke my evo, then refused to fix it because I had a few bolt on mods that they previously had no problem with. I had to pick my car up with a flat bed and my tranny in a box because they had left a piece out when they rebuilt it and it blew up. Then I needed a new T case because they didn't bleed it properly. I was 20 at the time and I ate it because I needed the car and was busy. I'm SICK of this BS. If they won't at least replace the springs, then I'll be filing a claim by end of week naming both the dealership AND Lexus corporate. Then they can fly a lawyer out here to represent them on a lawsuit that's worth less then he's being paid for the day.
If you buy a Samsung TV and 1.5 years later, they issued a TSIB for faulty remote controls, they would replace your remote, whether you had a receipt for the TV or not. They would have an exchange program where you could ship your remote in, or maybe you lay out the $ up front and when they receive your old remote back, they issue a credit.
I have Lexus Products on my car because they're supposed to be backed. If Eibach, H&R, Tanabe, etc... made springs, then deemed that some people had issues with them, they would replace them. Why is Lexus any different? They're not, and let a judge tell me I'm wrong.
This isn't my first runaround with a dealer. I had a mitsu dealer SCREW me out of just under $5000 about 6.5 years ago after they broke my evo, then refused to fix it because I had a few bolt on mods that they previously had no problem with. I had to pick my car up with a flat bed and my tranny in a box because they had left a piece out when they rebuilt it and it blew up. Then I needed a new T case because they didn't bleed it properly. I was 20 at the time and I ate it because I needed the car and was busy. I'm SICK of this BS. If they won't at least replace the springs, then I'll be filing a claim by end of week naming both the dealership AND Lexus corporate. Then they can fly a lawyer out here to represent them on a lawsuit that's worth less then he's being paid for the day.
10-26-10, 07:31 AM
#24
I'm already dealing with lexus corporate who is supporting the decision to deny me. I'm awaiting a call back from lexus corporate and the customer relations manager at the dealership tomorrow. This is not a warranty issue on my car, it's a warranty issue on their product.
Likewise, they won't fix the cam gear rattle if your engine is out of warranty... and they won't replace your high-dust pads with low-dust ones if your car is out of warranty.
Neither will other car dealers do non-recall repairs for free if you're out of warranty on either parts or the vehicle itself.
There's nothing different about Lexus handling of the issue compared to others.
If you buy a Samsung TV and 1.5 years later, they issued a TSIB for faulty remote controls, they would replace your remote, whether you had a receipt for the TV or not. They would have an exchange program where you could ship your remote in, or maybe you lay out the $ up front and when they receive your old remote back, they issue a credit.
Hence Lexus is fixing that for folks still under warranty as a courtesy. Just like the high-dust pads aren't faulty but are replaced as a courtesy if under warranty.
If this was a recall (ie the springs were actually DANGEROUS) then yours would be replaced for free regardless of warranty... but that's not the case here...
The text of the warranty on the F-sport springs is clear on its terms.
The text of the spring TSIB is clear on its terms too.
You're not covered, nor should you be.
I realize you're upset by this, but that is the "cost" of buying second hand parts without a warranty to save a few bucks...and lexus is doing nothing illegal and nothing wrong here.
10-26-10, 07:47 AM
#25
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sus...ml#post5870595
TSIB can be found at the bottom post.
You qualify for the TSIB if Lexus installed the springs during the car's lifecycle (they didn't so this doesn't apply) Or the springs were purchased over the counter within the past 12 months. You mentioned you bought them from another member meaning, this TSIB doesn't apply to you. You file a claim and they will just show the judge the criteria and you will lose because you don't qualify.
TSIB can be found at the bottom post.
You qualify for the TSIB if Lexus installed the springs during the car's lifecycle (they didn't so this doesn't apply) Or the springs were purchased over the counter within the past 12 months. You mentioned you bought them from another member meaning, this TSIB doesn't apply to you. You file a claim and they will just show the judge the criteria and you will lose because you don't qualify.
10-26-10, 07:49 AM
#26
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Ok and if a remote control from samsung was "noisy" when you pressed buttons, samsung would still replace it. Likewise I guarantee Eibach, H&R, etc... would be replacing their products as well.
I understand my exact situation skates around the way they worded their guarantee on them. If it were the OEM springs that made this noise, they would have done a recall, but the small amount of F sport springs that were released did not warrant that. Regardless of the fact, this is a situation where they should still stand behind their product and at least let me exchange the old ones for the new ones, not including the labor. That would be FAIR considering they acknowledge a problem with them.
I understand my exact situation skates around the way they worded their guarantee on them. If it were the OEM springs that made this noise, they would have done a recall, but the small amount of F sport springs that were released did not warrant that. Regardless of the fact, this is a situation where they should still stand behind their product and at least let me exchange the old ones for the new ones, not including the labor. That would be FAIR considering they acknowledge a problem with them.
10-26-10, 08:09 AM
#27
So how long have you had the springs and how long did the original owner have them? if its past 12 months since the original owner bought them then i dont understand the problem. i understand your upset that it clunks but if its only covered for 12 months if installed by an independent shop then theres nothing you can do. your not entitled to free tsb work. since it was not done at the dealer, the dealer probably does not want to take a risk looking at it only to have you blame them for something.
10-26-10, 08:16 AM
#28
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So how long have you had the springs and how long did the original owner have them? if its past 12 months since the original owner bought them then i dont understand the problem. i understand your upset that it clunks but if its only covered for 12 months if installed by an independent shop then theres nothing you can do. your not entitled to free tsb work. since it was not done at the dealer, the dealer probably does not want to take a risk looking at it only to have you blame them for something.
This isn't a time related issue. They're known to clunk, they just haven't made it to be replaced yet. I know how to read very well. I understand what the TSIB says. I do not agree that the way it is worded is fair.
If the springs were installed as original equipment, then they'd cover them. If a lexus dealer had installed them, they'd cover them. If I had a receipt for them, they'd cover them. So taking all of those things OUT of the equation means that my springs don't actually have the problem? I'm not trying to scam lexus here people. I believe they should at least exchange any set of rear springs that someone complains about. I have better things to do in my life then complain about them clunking if that really wasn't the case.
Additionally, Lexus dealers are not the only qualified spring installers in the country. I do not think it is fair to air on the side of them not being installed correctly. Is it a possibility? Slim, but I guess so. But I wouldn't mind having a 3rd party mechanic inspect to verify they are properly installed and if they're NOT, I'd be willing to incur the cost of that and drop my fight. I'm 100% confident that they ARE installed correctly.
10-26-10, 08:23 AM
#29
i completely understand what your saying dont get me wrong. the reason lexus wont warranty the part is because they do not know if they were installed correctly. i know you want them to look at it and see if they were but the dealer probably does not want to get involved in it and i understand their point also.
its a crappy situation but the words in the tsb and warranty work is what lexus is going to stand by. you can try all you want but they will always say it was installed at an independent shop which voids the warranty. you best bet is to try a different dealership.
its a crappy situation but the words in the tsb and warranty work is what lexus is going to stand by. you can try all you want but they will always say it was installed at an independent shop which voids the warranty. you best bet is to try a different dealership.
10-26-10, 08:34 AM
#30
The terms of the warranty have been available since long before you bought the springs.
If you did not like the terms of the warranty, and believe that other brands spring warranty would have had terms you liked better, then you should have bought another brand of spring.
I get you're upset. I don't get why you think you're entitled to a free replacement when, very clearly, you aren't.
If you did not like the terms of the warranty, and believe that other brands spring warranty would have had terms you liked better, then you should have bought another brand of spring.
I get you're upset. I don't get why you think you're entitled to a free replacement when, very clearly, you aren't.