Originally posted by DoubleWhoosh
I don't know folks, these Whiteline units are definitely not something you want to put on your car. Toylexmods is bragging about the weight of his bars, 500% more than the stock bars...this is ridiculous!

Anyone who knows anything about vehicle performance knows that unsprung weight is one of the number one items that should be addressed. Adding this much extra weight to your suspension components is probably one of the worst things that you can do. Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as when going to larger wheels and tires, but to purposely put heavier sway bars...that's not a good idea at all.

Secondly, the Whiteline bars are 30mm and 20mm if I recall correctly. This only results in an increase of approximately 28% stiffness over the stock bar which is also 30.1mm/1.187" (hollow .180" wall). On the rear, there is no way to actually calculate the difference, due to the different mounting style.

28% of increase is pretty mild, the street TRD bars are approximately 35%, but are hollow...a much better choice.

The TRD race versions (not currently available in the US) increase by approximately 162%. Too much for a street driven car. Same issue with the GS bars by TRD.

The Daizen bars we offer have several advantages over this. First and foremost, they were designed FOR an SC, not a Supra.

They are also designed to balance the chassis of an SC and have been fitted and tested on an SC. Secondly, they are hollow. 35mm dia, and hollow, with a little over 100% increase in stiffness. The bar is somewhere around 8 lbs if I recall correctly. The rear is also hollow, unlike the Whitelines...more unsprung weight issues from these Whitelines!

The Daizen parts were designed for use on an aggressively driven street car, so they are very effective yet still very civilized. I've read more than one post about fitment issues with hoses, etc. with the Whitelines on other websites, this should be something to be wary about. Not sure which sites, but I'm sure a websearch would turn them up.

I have heard some issues as well with the Whiteline control arm bushings, I think some people on Peter Scott's Soarer site have the specific information. They basically refer to the bushings converting the ride of their Soarer into the ride of a truck. This shows that their products were designed for a Supra on a racetrack, not a street driven Lexus.

Australians also have a very different approach with their performance parts, they are very aggressive and are a lot less concerned with everyday driveability. Most are weekend race cars. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's just not what the American market really desires or wants, especially so with a Lexus. This is why the Daizen bushings were tooled with softer compound urethane, leaving the ride quality virtually unchanged.

Another issue is that the Whiteline bars require so many replacement parts for retrofit. Especially so since they are OEM parts, this is expensive and somewhat nonproductive.

Lexus isn't stupid, if they designed a major structural part this way (rear sway bar mount), I'm sure that mount is ok. Remember, this was their flagship car and no expense was spared for production or design.

Upgrading to stock Supra bars can be a somewhat economical alternative if you can source all of the proper parts at a good price, but you definitely will not get a significant increase in roll control. It will be noticeable however, so some people might be good to go with those. Increases would be in the neighborhood of 20% with this setup.

The Daizen bars are a complete kit, designed specifically for the SC chassis, and provide over 100% increase in stiffness front and rear, and use all of the stock mounting hardware. No significant unsprung weight issues either. Adjustable rear bar too.

The TRD street bars are also a decent choice, but the cost along with the extra parts required could make that upgrade somewhat cost prohibitive. The increase in roll stiffness is not a whole lot either. Pricing would decide if this is a good choice for you.

Originally posted by wmulli
Hmmm... the sway bars are supported (mounted) to the chassis. Doesn't that make them *unsprung* weight???

Anything attached to the chassis and also the suspension or wheel area is 1/2 the value of the actual weight as far as unsprung weight goes.

At the same time, I forget offhand what the exact number is, but unsprung weight is like 5 times as much of a liability versus sprung weight. Something like that.

Hmmm (again)... I don't think you can compare the stiffness based solely on the diameter of the bar. Different materials, lengths, and mount points all affect the result

Bar stiffness is calculated by diameter, wall thickness, length, and many other factors. Materials are a very small percentage of the factor, most comparisons can be done with the information on diameter and wall thickness for any given identically shaped bars.

The TRD bars are 35% stiffer than the stock *SUPRA* bars, which are already 17% stiffer then the Lexus bars. But they share the same chassis!?!

Same chassis yes, but different sway bar mounting points in the rear. Completely different. Also, the chassis are not weight distributed the same, nor are they set up the same as far as spring rates and shock valving. Unless it's the same, car, it's not the same car.

I have the TRD bars and just *LOVE* 'em! I think they're as close to perfect for the street as you could ask for. Perfect balance, no roll, and minimal impact on ride quality. Granted, I haven't tried the Whitelines or the Daizens, but with the TRD bars, I don't feel any need to change them.

Like I said, the TRD *are* good, it's just may not be economically feasible with the additional parts required (for installation on a Lexus - on a Supra they are best of course, since they are a direct bolt-on). The overall expenditure vs. the mild increase in stiffness is not a good ratio. They are good I never said they weren't. The increase in stiffness is basically the same as the Whitelines, but there again you have the ridiculous increase in unsprung weight. With the TRD's you don't have any issues with unsprung weight, as they are hollow just like the stock bar.

One final point, it's really unbecoming for a dealer to diss another manufacturers product. You really can't be seen as impartial

Well, I'm just tired of people like this who waltz in here to sell some of their product in a quick and dirty way. ToyLexMods comes in here, tries to sell his friend's stuff, denies that he has anything to do with them. On top of that, he tries to tell everyone that a product that we have is inferior to theirs. If you don't believe me, go back and do a search on the control arm bushing issue. Then go back again to a post from the week before and you can see him soliciting a group buy for the same bushings.

I spend a lot of time posting information here, virtually all of it is objective information or advice - not to sell this or that. On top of that, it costs me MONEY to do it. A lot. Vendor status is not free here. How is it right for these guys to come in and try to make a fast buck and on top of that try to undermine a product that was made for these cars in the first place, especially when their product is for a Supra.

Additionally, their product adds problems to a very important issue (unsprung weight) with these cars, and I think it's very important for people to know about it. Anyone who knows about vehicular dynamics would be appaled to think about increasing unsprung weight in a vehicle by such a large percentage.

Even if I didn't have any bars to offer, I'd make the same statements.

Originally posted by ToyLexmods
Oh,

And as far as my "buddy the Whiteline dealer" goes...he is a US distributor of the product. Big deal...he pays his dues...has ads in the SCC and other spots and provides a service. If he develops any application for the CL gang and he is talking with Whiteline about it right now...that is great for everyone. Whats wrong with some competition? If the applications work for the CL gang will he become a good standing member and input to CL....Yes. Again, whats wrong with that?

Originally posted by DoubleWhoosh
What he does outside of this forum is irrelevant, he hasn't paid any dues here. If he has an application for CL and wants to post it here, he needs to pay CL. He can't just come in here and magically become a good standing member and post stuff for sale...this is what is wrong with that.

Originally posted by DoubleWhoosh
I don't know folks, these Whiteline units are definitely not something you want to put on your car. Toylexmods is bragging about the weight of his bars, 500% more than the stock bars...this is ridiculous!

Anyone who knows anything about vehicle performance knows that unsprung weight is one of the number one items that should be addressed. Adding this much extra weight to your suspension components is probably one of the worst things that you can do. Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as when going to larger wheels and tires, but to purposely put heavier sway bars...that's not a good idea at all.

Secondly, the Whiteline bars are 30mm and 20mm if I recall correctly. This only results in an increase of approximately 28% stiffness over the stock bar which is also 30.1mm/1.187" (hollow .180" wall). On the rear, there is no way to actually calculate the difference, due to the different mounting style.

28% of increase is pretty mild, the street TRD bars are approximately 35%, but are hollow...a much better choice. The TRD race versions (not currently available in the US) increase by approximately 162%. Too much for a street driven car. Same issue with the GS bars by TRD.

The Daizen bars we offer have several advantages over this. First and foremost, they were designed FOR an SC, not a Supra. They are also designed to balance the chassis of an SC and have been fitted and tested on an SC. Secondly, they are hollow. 35mm dia, and hollow, with a little over 100% increase in stiffness. The bar is somewhere around 8 lbs if I recall correctly. The rear is also hollow, unlike the Whitelines...more unsprung weight issues from these Whitelines!

The Daizen parts were designed for use on an aggressively driven street car, so they are very effective yet still very civilized. I've read more than one post about fitment issues with hoses, etc. with the Whitelines on other websites, this should be something to be wary about. Not sure which sites, but I'm sure a websearch would turn them up.

I have heard some issues as well with the Whiteline control arm bushings, I think some people on Peter Scott's Soarer site have the specific information. They basically refer to the bushings converting the ride of their Soarer into the ride of a truck. This shows that their products were designed for a Supra on a racetrack, not a street driven Lexus.

Australians also have a very different approach with their performance parts, they are very aggressive and are a lot less concerned with everyday driveability. Most are weekend race cars. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's just not what the American market really desires or wants, especially so with a Lexus. This is why the Daizen bushings were tooled with softer compound urethane, leaving the ride quality virtually unchanged.

Another issue is that the Whiteline bars require so many replacement parts for retrofit. Especially so since they are OEM parts, this is expensive and somewhat nonproductive.

Lexus isn't stupid, if they designed a major structural part this way (rear sway bar mount), I'm sure that mount is ok. Remember, this was their flagship car and no expense was spared for production or design.

Upgrading to stock Supra bars can be a somewhat economical alternative if you can source all of the proper parts at a good price, but you definitely will not get a significant increase in roll control. It will be noticeable however, so some people might be good to go with those. Increases would be in the neighborhood of 20% with this setup.

The Daizen bars are a complete kit, designed specifically for the SC chassis, and provide over 100% increase in stiffness front and rear, and use all of the stock mounting hardware. No significant unsprung weight issues either. Adjustable rear bar too.

The TRD street bars are also a decent choice, but the cost along with the extra parts required could make that upgrade somewhat cost prohibitive. The increase in roll stiffness is not a whole lot either. Pricing would decide if this is a good choice for you.

Originally posted by ToyLexmods
LS400,

At what point was I or anyone else selling, posting prices, discounts or deals? As I prev stated, I posted this info and left this thread at that. I didnt stir up the can of worms on this issue and I am tired of being accused of selling without having paid my vendor dues. What is wrong with clearing up the battery of responses from this Whoosh guy? If the GM/engineer from Whiteline wishes to clear up and defend his product....lets bash him too for not paying CL vendor dues.

How much are these vendor dues? I will send a check today to just shut everybody up.