ydnandy

Yes, oem pads that were installed by the same dealership i went to. They were install prior to me owning.

Who would i contact at lexus for clarification?

Thanks again

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

I think Lexus customer assistance is 1-800-255-3987

I'd explain something like this:


Hi, I own a X year Lexus IS still under factory warranty. The previous owner at some point replaced the brake pads with a new set of the same Lexus high-dust factory pads it came with. Since buying the car I did some research on the excessive amount of dust produced by these pads and learned Lexus has an update to address this under warranty, but my dealer is refusing to perform the service and I was hoping you can assist me in getting this done while the car is still in the warranty period

ydnandy

Thanks! I called them this morning and explained the situation. The rep said she couldn't find any TSB that were applicable to my 2008 IS, but said she would transfer my case to someone else for further review. I tried to give her the TSB number but she said it wouldn't help bc her system wasn't showing any updates/recalls as being applicable. I should hear back within 2 business days.... hopefully sooner since the car is at the dealership now, don't want to have to take it back again....

carchitect

iTrader: (1)

Brakes are considered wear and tear. Just like tires, clutches, and other rubber components on the vehicle, they are not designed to last forever and most of them have a very high likelihood of not making it till the basic bumper to bumper warranty expires. The previous owner probably had them replaced due to brake noise. Lexus takes care of this repair once for the original owner if they are not worn out. Understand that the dealer has to get paid by Lexus for the work being performed. If the pads are replaced once and done again, the claim will get kicked back. A kicked back claim means a bill that didn't get paid. By law, since you are owner, you could get a bill from the dealer if the claim gets denied from your dealer. Understand that most dealers won't do that but that doesn't mean it that it won't. Times are tough for most dealers nowadays and if too many claims get kicked back, they have every right to take on the next course.

The original pads are black. The low dust pads pads are green and the new TSB for brake noise with updated rotors,pads and shims use blue pads. The material composition of the blue and green pads are the same. The black pads are high dust and high mu composition. Whenever I take my car to the track, I switch to the black pads,shims and rotors. The brake noise TSB uses rotors that are not vented in the hat area also. The ventilation in these rotors isn't as efficient as the original rotors either. They are fine for the street but 140 mph continuous stops means I need high metallic composition pads to do the job. The green or blue pads would fall apart before I'm done with my track day.

The blue or green pads will be easier on your rotors also and prolong it's life. The biggest downfall is the brakes will require more effort to stop the vehicle and this also means that the rear brake pads will wear out that much faster during moderate braking as they are doing more work.

There are two different types of friction in brake systems. Adherent friction (imagine dragging your fingers across glass) and abrasive friction (piece of rebar across concrete). Adherent friction on cast iron rotors will work well until the brakes heat up during aggressive and spirited driving. The resins in the pad begin outgassing as they are designed to melt and sublimate and the friction COF (mu) drops. The metallic composition in the pads then begin to deliver increase bit to compensate as the metallic increases mu in higher temps. Unfortunately, the increased mu in the metallic will wear out the rotors and the brake dust that you see on your wheels is indeed the rotor material being scrapped off.

I personally use the blue pads,updated shims and updated rotors. The original rotors and pads have 20k on them and the pads are still at 7mm but they been through hell literally. I install them on the car the day before the track day and drive out there, use them for about six- thirty minute sessions (lots of cool down and rest time) and drive home on them. The next day I go back to the daily drive mode and the original stuff gets stored for another track day.

IS-F come with these high mu pads from factory and brake dust just as badly but don't get complaints due to their charcoal colored ugly radiator fan wheels. But there isn't a low mu pad available for that model and the Brembo rotors wear out by 15k miles. The drilled rotors are not supposed to be resurfaced either and usually require replacement at the same time the pads are done. Needless to say an IS-F front brake job is usually $~1K parts and labor MSRP. Labor is only 1.5 hrs but the parts will leave your wallet slightly snorkeling. You guys don't wanna know the price of brakes on the LF-A. Lets just say, you can purchased a new IS350 and still not pay for the brakes on an LF-A.

I'm sharing a lot of information here to remind you guys of the saying you gotta _____ to ____. There isn't a free lunch everywhere. We all get lucky once in a while and get something covered that would've been an out of pocket expense. The warranty of a vehicle is 4 years/50K but there are several items that are occasionally handled which are not covered by other manufacturers with sport sedans or coupes.

These types of concerns are best left dealt with on a one on one basis. If you have your vehicle serviced (I'm not speaking oil changes and complimentary car washes) at your dealer on a regular basis they could probably take care of this issue. If all the vehicle is bought into the dealer is for warranty related repairs, they will do just as much for you as your are for them.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Except they haven't already replaced them once for the brake dust issue. Because if they had he wouldn't be getting brake dust now.

And the pads on the car aren't worn out.

Hence there's no reason not to cover it under warranty.

Really?

Which law is that?

Because when the dealer finishes a warranty repair he gives me a receipt for $0.00 owed. He's not getting any money later from me, and I'd love to hear the legal reasoning under which you think he can, since I never authorized him to do any repair for which I'd be billed.

Huh?

Any of the pads in question can generate way more force than the tires are capable of using so that doesn't make much sense...

I mean, yeah, you do have to push the brake pedal an extra few millimeters to get the same initial braking, but you do end up with the same braking.... that's why the car still stops in exactly the same distance it did before if you slam the pedal down.... and most folks find that being able to use the brakes over a greater range of control, rather than the high-dust pads that make the pedal act like an off/on switch, is an improvement.

I can't see how this wears the rears any faster since you're certainly not changing the brake proportioning by changing the brake pads.... and the amount of wear (or lack thereof) on my rear pads in the 20+ thousand miles since I had the TSIB done seems to support that.

carchitect

iTrader: (1)

Purchase a Porsche GT2/GT3 with PCCB and when your brakes squeak the dealer will not repair it under warranty. The vehicle doesn't have any issues with stopping. Even if an updated TSB came out and the pads are updated design on the later models to address the noise, the items that are wear and tear won't be covered since they still perform as designed and a minor concern like noise or excessive dust won't hurt their performance.

If Lexus switched out the tires on the newer vehicles to use Michelin Pilot Super Sport instead of the Turanza ER33/EL400 that most of the older models use and you don't have worn tires, do you expect Lexus to switch out your tires to Michelin Pilot Super Sports if your tires are noisey? The brake pads are also considered wear and tear items.

Read the fine print. Your signature is approval for repair but not for an agreement of expenses. The laws in each state are different.

When you drive your brakes past the contact patch traction limit, then you will end up with the same stopping force regardless of the brake pads used. That's the limit that I and everyone else try to avoid since this limit invites loss of vehicle control. Even driving at the track as often as I do, I always give myself enough braking distance (even though it is very close to the limit) to allow the suspension and vehicle to settle before entering a turn after a long straight. Sure at low temperature, the high mu pads are "touchy" vs the low dust pads are "more progressive" but I know for sure that the low mu pads will not survive the way I drive the vehicle at the track.

Initial braking will be higher with the low dust pads. I think we can both atleast agree this much. So what is going to happen with initial braking when the brake force is increased? The ABS actuator is preprogrammed to control the fluid pressure split from the front and rear wheel calipers. You won't need to worry about the pressure at the braking limit as the ABS will detect the wheel slip but it will not recalibrate it's preprogrammed pressure split control from the front and rear wheels. So switching to the low dust pads you DO change the brake proportioning more rear brake biased during low to moderate braking. Once the ABS system apply pressure is reached a programmed thershold, the rear wheels pressure will be closed off and the remaining pressure increased from there on will only be sent to the front wheels.

I wear out my rear brake pads much more than my front for other reasons. The rear brakes seem to engage more often than the front since I engage the TCS all the time, even on the street. The next set of tires will be 275 for this reason. The current set is a 255 rear as I was trying to get better gas mileage but it wasn't worth the reduction in traction.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Probably because there's no TSIB authorizing a replacement for that issue.

There is one authorizing replacement of pads for excussive dust on the 2IS though.

So no idea why you bring the irrelevant Porsche up.

Except again he's not asking them to do anything because of noise.

he's asking for the brake dust TSIB. Which has never been done on this car, and the pads aren't worn out.

Are you just throwing out as many irrelevant situations as you can think of at this point?

He has excessive brake dust. There's a TSIB that addresses this. His pads are not worn out, and he qualifies for it.

You've yet to offer anything even vaguely resembling a reason he shouldn't get it. Instead you keep bringing up different parts of the car that aren't relevant, or different cars entirely.





Really?

Quote one to me.

Because nothing I've ever signed at Lexus says "You can retroactively bill me for money I never authorized you to charge me"

Certainly you can't know every states law, so by all means just lemme know the specific law in your state that lets them do that and what you think folks are signing that lets dealers charge you after the fact.

I just reviewed the last several things I signed for dealer work and have seen nothing suggesting they can bill me later for work they're invoicing at $0.00 when I pick the car up.



Well, in a 1950s car certainly. ABS largely takes care of that issue anymore though- that's kind of the point of the system in fact.... letting you brake around threshold braking while still being able to steer the vehicle.

Not really sure what that has to do with the topic though.

And I'm sure that's true... but other than you nobody is discussing driving the car on a racetrack, and I'm not sure anyone but you knows why you're even bringing that up in a discussion of having warranty work done.


I'm pretty sure we can't.

But maybe your statement is unclear... it reads like you mean you're getting more braking force with the lower-dust pads initially, which certainly isn't the case.

If you mean you have to apply more force with your foot, then sure, though we're talking degrees of fractions of an inch on the pedal, and still missing the relevance to the warranty work... and we seem to agree any set of pads will still stop you in the same distance.


Again though, as interesting as this and all your track exploits are, I'm having trouble finding their relevance to the OP getting the brake dust TSIB applied under warranty?

carchitect

iTrader: (1)

I think I have it easier for me to convince the high mu brake pads to quit make the dust than it would be to make any sense for you. Take it easy. Enjoy the keyboard exploits.

My0gr81

OK Back on topic.
Has the TSIB been extended to other model years? I just picked up a MY2012, brand new, May 2012 production date, and it is shedding black dust like a coal miner just off from his shift. The service advisor showed me their online copy and it only included IS up to MY2009. He said he would send a customer complaint form to Lexus and see what they come back with.

ydnandy

finally heard back from lexus corporate... they agreed that the pads should be covered under warranty. Talked to the dealership and explained that I wasn't complaining about their service or anything else, just that I wanted to call corporate and get clarification as to why I was being told lexus parts were not covered under warranty.

Anyway.... new pads go on Thursday I'm excited about having pads that are less "grippy" and produce less dust.

Dealership and corporate explained that the new pads were more prone to noise, anyone have that problem? I haven't heard many people complain about them.


As for the comments about people basically trying to "scam" the dealerships into doing work under a warranty but never paying for anything else... Sure, i kinda fall into this category since i've only had the car 3 months and would like it to be as close to perfect as possible before warranty is up. I haven't had the car long enough to pay them for any real work, but I did pay them a little extra to do a 45k service instead of just an oil change. Also, I paid someone at Lexus ~2k for an extended warranty so hopefully that buys me a little wiggle room somewhere

Kurtz - thanks for the info and backing, i continue to respect a lot of what you say around here... always have great/useful posts.

My0gr81 - sorry man, no idea if the TSB has been extended... good luck with your pads though! Love the analogy, haha

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

In the US cars began coming from the factory with the low dust pad in either mid-2009 or 2010 model years (and the TSIB covers through 09s as you note)

In Canada they apparently just kept using the high dust pads (I think Jeff Lange has a post describing this)

I've never seen a Canadian version of the TSIB to address the difference though

ydnandy

Got my new pads on today Definitely like the new feel of the brakes, no more grabby feel. There is a much better "range" of braking with these pads, not just on/off. Haven't had them on long enough to determine how much better the dust is. They warned me about excessive noise on these new pads, but didn't hear any on my drive home.

Dealership surprised me and went the extra mile on this fix... they were replacing the pads and went ahead and replaced the rotors for me as well. They said they were wearing low and they previously resurfaced them, so this time they replaced them. First time I have ever had a dealership proactively replace something for free for me

Shiny new rotors:

diverchris

Hello,
I stumbled across this thread and need some advice. I currently own a 2009 IS250 with 16000 km or 10000 miles on it- I'm the second owner.
I have the same problems with excessive amount of brake dust after two days after washing.
I called Barrie Lexus about the low dust Brake paid TSB posted on page 1.
I was informed that my car did not have any campaigns on it. When I pressed further giving the TSB number I was told that this is only for US not Canada.
I really don't think thing that Lexus would make that stipulation. That being said can anyone offer any suggestions on my next step.
Thanks in advance,
Chris

Jeff Lange

iTrader: (1)

Canada and USA have different TSB's. USA TSIB's do not apply in Canada.

That being said, there is a Canadian TSB for this concern. TSB2203, your Lexus dealership can look that up, it will have the information you need in it.

They updated it to include 2009 models a couple of years ago, but haven't updated it since then, so anyone with a 2010-12 model with the high-dust pads isn't going to get much without talking to Lexus Canada or paying for it themselves.

Jeff

diverchris

Hi Jeff,
Thak you for the information and the rapid response. I will call them tomorrow and see what happens.
Thanks once again,
Chris