Swaybars and unsprung weight
12-22-02, 05:02 AM
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Swaybars and unsprung weight
Hi all,
I'd been invited to add a few bits of 'strictly information' to another thread, but it had been closed down, hence this new one.
I'm referring to a comparison of aftermarket solid vs hollow swaybars for the SC400.
I'm not sure where the weight figures in this discussion came from, and I don't have my own figures at hand, but it is easy to calculate that the difference in cross sectional area between a solid 30mm bar, and a 30.1mm OD, 21mm ID (standard bar) is a fraction under double. If the standard one 8.5lb (like I said, not my figures) then a solid 30mm, all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb.
Unsprung weight is all of the weight that moves when the suspension moves. The swaybars contribution to unsprung weight at each corner is limited to half the weight of the 'lever arm' portion of the bar.
Roughly 3/4 of this swaybar is supported in between the chassis clamps (therefore is sprung) which leaves about a 1/4 of the 17lb in the lever arms, or 4.25lb. So at one corner, the arm weighs roughly just over 2lb. Remember unsprung weight that is also attached to the chassis (same goes for wishbones etc), is half of the weight of the component, so we have, per corner, something like a 1lb contribution to unsprung weight from a 30mm solid swaybar.
Now the solid swaybar should weigh roughly double the lexus hollow one, so we have an increase of unsprung weight of around 0.5lb per corner.
Something else to keep in mind is that the swaybars we are referring to, aren't catalogued for the Lexus, and the ones that will be, are likely to be quite different anyway.
I'm also surprised to hear that Australian aftermarket suspension is known to be excessively aggressive and stiff. We are unfortunate enough to have some of the most badly built, poorly maintained roads in the western world. The result of this is that Australian aftermarket suspension products are very much designed around keeping suspension travel optimised, so that the result is a compliant ride that absorbs bumps well, keeping the car on line on rough corners. If it works well here, it will give a limo ride overseas.
Regards,
Paul Clausen
I'd been invited to add a few bits of 'strictly information' to another thread, but it had been closed down, hence this new one.
I'm referring to a comparison of aftermarket solid vs hollow swaybars for the SC400.
I'm not sure where the weight figures in this discussion came from, and I don't have my own figures at hand, but it is easy to calculate that the difference in cross sectional area between a solid 30mm bar, and a 30.1mm OD, 21mm ID (standard bar) is a fraction under double. If the standard one 8.5lb (like I said, not my figures) then a solid 30mm, all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb.
Unsprung weight is all of the weight that moves when the suspension moves. The swaybars contribution to unsprung weight at each corner is limited to half the weight of the 'lever arm' portion of the bar.
Roughly 3/4 of this swaybar is supported in between the chassis clamps (therefore is sprung) which leaves about a 1/4 of the 17lb in the lever arms, or 4.25lb. So at one corner, the arm weighs roughly just over 2lb. Remember unsprung weight that is also attached to the chassis (same goes for wishbones etc), is half of the weight of the component, so we have, per corner, something like a 1lb contribution to unsprung weight from a 30mm solid swaybar.
Now the solid swaybar should weigh roughly double the lexus hollow one, so we have an increase of unsprung weight of around 0.5lb per corner.
Something else to keep in mind is that the swaybars we are referring to, aren't catalogued for the Lexus, and the ones that will be, are likely to be quite different anyway.
I'm also surprised to hear that Australian aftermarket suspension is known to be excessively aggressive and stiff. We are unfortunate enough to have some of the most badly built, poorly maintained roads in the western world. The result of this is that Australian aftermarket suspension products are very much designed around keeping suspension travel optimised, so that the result is a compliant ride that absorbs bumps well, keeping the car on line on rough corners. If it works well here, it will give a limo ride overseas.
Regards,
Paul Clausen
12-22-02, 06:41 AM
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Re: Swaybars and unsprung weight
Originally posted by DoubleWhoosh
I don't know folks, these Whiteline units are definitely not something you want to put on your car. Toylexmods is bragging about the weight of his bars, 500% more than the stock bars...this is ridiculous
Anyone who knows anything about vehicle performance knows that unsprung weight is one of the number one items that should be addressed. Adding this much extra weight to your suspension components is probably one of the worst things that you can do. Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as when going to larger wheels and tires, but to purposely put heavier sway bars...that's not a good idea at all.!
I don't know folks, these Whiteline units are definitely not something you want to put on your car. Toylexmods is bragging about the weight of his bars, 500% more than the stock bars...this is ridiculous
Anyone who knows anything about vehicle performance knows that unsprung weight is one of the number one items that should be addressed. Adding this much extra weight to your suspension components is probably one of the worst things that you can do. Sometimes it's unavoidable, such as when going to larger wheels and tires, but to purposely put heavier sway bars...that's not a good idea at all.!
Secondly, the Whiteline bars are 30mm and 20mm if I recall correctly. This only results in an increase of approximately 28% stiffness over the stock bar which is also 30.1mm/1.187" (hollow .180" wall). On the rear, there is no way to actually calculate the difference, due to the different mounting style.
The Daizen bars we offer have several advantages over this. First and foremost, they were designed FOR an SC, not a Supra. They are also designed to balance the chassis of an SC and have been fitted and tested on an SC. Secondly, they are hollow. 35mm dia, and hollow, with a little over 100% increase in stiffness. The bar is somewhere around 8 lbs if I recall correctly. The rear is also hollow, unlike the Whitelines...more unsprung weight issues from these Whitelines!
!
The Daizen bars we offer have several advantages over this. First and foremost, they were designed FOR an SC, not a Supra. They are also designed to balance the chassis of an SC and have been fitted and tested on an SC. Secondly, they are hollow. 35mm dia, and hollow, with a little over 100% increase in stiffness. The bar is somewhere around 8 lbs if I recall correctly. The rear is also hollow, unlike the Whitelines...more unsprung weight issues from these Whitelines!
!
The Daizen parts were designed for use on an aggressively driven street car, so they are very effective yet still very civilized. I've read more than one post about fitment issues with hoses, etc. with the Whitelines on other websites, this should be something to be wary about. Not sure which sites, but I'm sure a websearch would turn them up.!
I have heard some issues as well with the Whiteline control arm bushings, I think some people on Peter Scott's Soarer site have the specific information. They basically refer to the bushings converting the ride of their Soarer into the ride of a truck. This shows that their products were designed for a Supra on a racetrack, not a street driven Lexus.!
To take an example, whiteline's famous subaru anti-lift kit now has the option of a lower durometer bush as a 'comfort' option due to requests from the I-club forum.
Australians also have a very different approach with their performance parts, they are very aggressive and are a lot less concerned with everyday driveability. Most are weekend race cars. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's just not what the American market really desires or wants, especially so with a Lexus. This is why the Daizen bushings were tooled with softer compound urethane, leaving the ride quality virtually unchanged.!
Another issue is that the Whiteline bars require so many replacement parts for retrofit. Especially so since they are OEM parts, this is expensive and somewhat nonproductive.!
Lexus isn't stupid, if they designed a major structural part this way (rear sway bar mount), I'm sure that mount is ok. Remember, this was their flagship car and no expense was spared for production or design.!
Upgrading to stock Supra bars can be a somewhat economical alternative if you can source all of the proper parts at a good price, but you definitely will not get a significant increase in roll control. It will be noticeable however, so some people might be good to go with those. Increases would be in the neighborhood of 20% with this setup.
The Daizen bars are a complete kit, designed specifically for the SC chassis, and provide over 100% increase in stiffness front and rear, and use all of the stock mounting hardware. No significant unsprung weight issues either. Adjustable rear bar too.
Last edited by Hotgemini; 12-22-02 at 06:46 AM.
12-22-02, 03:12 PM
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Whiteline,
Maybe I can summarize this ordeal so that people are not confused.
You BOTH agree that sway bars add to unsprung weight.
You BOTH agree that the bars are NOT made or meant for an SC.
You BOTH agree that you need extra hardware to mount Supra stuff to an SC.
Questions for you.
Why don't you know the weight of your bars? Can you weigh them? When you ship them, how many pounds do you charge people for? How did ToyLexMods weigh them incorrectly?
Second, in your weight mathmatics you state "all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb." but you KNOW the geometry is different. That puzzles me too.
Third, can you address for us the unsatisfactory reviews on your bushings squeaks, and the general unhappiness with your products on several forums? Any possibility that you are planning revisions that can help Lexus owners?
I find that you posting comments here is a welcome to the lions den of criticism. It is easy to criticize DoubleWoosh because he is always here to stand behind his product and be accessible to customers and other DIY'ers. However, I think your responses to peoples concerns here will help you understand that DoubleWoosh is doing nothing but trying to help people.
Thanks Paul...
Hotgemini,
Are you a tabloid writer? All in kidding but you took everything out of context and with this being your first post as well as Whiteline's it made this whole thread lose credibility. I think more people are interested in factual information, specs, and reviews of performance. People are not interested in your rants and slanderous comments. The moderators here suggest that if you have an issue with another member directly, then use the PM system to take care of that. I understand you live in Aus and drive the roads, but to compare, do you drive often in the US? Granted Doublewoosh doesnt drive your backyard but are you sure you are doing anyone any better. Comparing the roads should be left to people that know. FYI...Cali does have pretty poor road conditions.
http://www.allstays.com/Features/Cal...WorstRoads.htm
MW
Maybe I can summarize this ordeal so that people are not confused.
You BOTH agree that sway bars add to unsprung weight.
You BOTH agree that the bars are NOT made or meant for an SC.
You BOTH agree that you need extra hardware to mount Supra stuff to an SC.
Questions for you.
Why don't you know the weight of your bars? Can you weigh them? When you ship them, how many pounds do you charge people for? How did ToyLexMods weigh them incorrectly?
Second, in your weight mathmatics you state "all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb." but you KNOW the geometry is different. That puzzles me too.
Third, can you address for us the unsatisfactory reviews on your bushings squeaks, and the general unhappiness with your products on several forums? Any possibility that you are planning revisions that can help Lexus owners?
I find that you posting comments here is a welcome to the lions den of criticism. It is easy to criticize DoubleWoosh because he is always here to stand behind his product and be accessible to customers and other DIY'ers. However, I think your responses to peoples concerns here will help you understand that DoubleWoosh is doing nothing but trying to help people.
Thanks Paul...
Hotgemini,
Are you a tabloid writer? All in kidding but you took everything out of context and with this being your first post as well as Whiteline's it made this whole thread lose credibility. I think more people are interested in factual information, specs, and reviews of performance. People are not interested in your rants and slanderous comments. The moderators here suggest that if you have an issue with another member directly, then use the PM system to take care of that. I understand you live in Aus and drive the roads, but to compare, do you drive often in the US? Granted Doublewoosh doesnt drive your backyard but are you sure you are doing anyone any better. Comparing the roads should be left to people that know. FYI...Cali does have pretty poor road conditions.
http://www.allstays.com/Features/Cal...WorstRoads.htm
MW
12-22-02, 04:03 PM
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Re: Swaybars and unsprung weight
Originally posted by Whiteline
Hi all,
I'd been invited to add a few bits of 'strictly information' to another thread, but it had been closed down, hence this new one.
I'm referring to a comparison of aftermarket solid vs hollow swaybars for the SC400.
I'm not sure where the weight figures in this discussion came from, and I don't have my own figures at hand, but it is easy to calculate that the difference in cross sectional area between a solid 30mm bar, and a 30.1mm OD, 21mm ID (standard bar) is a fraction under double. If the standard one 8.5lb (like I said, not my figures) then a solid 30mm, all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb.
.
.
.
Something else to keep in mind is that the swaybars we are referring to, aren't catalogued for the Lexus, and the ones that will be, are likely to be quite different anyway.
.
.
.
Regards,
Paul Clausen
Hi all,
I'd been invited to add a few bits of 'strictly information' to another thread, but it had been closed down, hence this new one.
I'm referring to a comparison of aftermarket solid vs hollow swaybars for the SC400.
I'm not sure where the weight figures in this discussion came from, and I don't have my own figures at hand, but it is easy to calculate that the difference in cross sectional area between a solid 30mm bar, and a 30.1mm OD, 21mm ID (standard bar) is a fraction under double. If the standard one 8.5lb (like I said, not my figures) then a solid 30mm, all other geometry being the same, will be just under 17lb.
.
.
.
Something else to keep in mind is that the swaybars we are referring to, aren't catalogued for the Lexus, and the ones that will be, are likely to be quite different anyway.
.
.
.
Regards,
Paul Clausen
since you didn't have any specs on the "new" product, just say it and leave it at that. you can inform the members on the progress of your new lexus designed product and how it will perform..if the higher ups in moderator land let you.
also, probably in hindsight, you should have also have said the existing whiteline product was designed for the supra and not lexus though people have retorfitted it for use in a lexus sc3/sc4. if it was meant for lexus sc3/sc4, then it would have had an application number for it and you wouldn't be designing a new product, correct?
in addition, what is your position with whiteline? are you a distributor, designer, owner, an eccentric whiteline fan, etc... it would be nice to know who we are getting the information from. for all we know, you could be some crazed lunatic posting from a cave somewhere in iraq! credentials please before you can fly over the no fly zone please.
i'm a little dissapointed in the way this thread has come out considering we have sooo many many moderators/super moderators/moderators of moderators ((this is not a flame of moderators
) and they invited you to give a fyi on a product. what the moderators should have told you is you is tell the clublexus members that whiteline is coming out with a lexus designed product. since this was posted in the sc400/sc300 forum, i'm "assuming" it's going to be for the sc4/sc3.thank you for sharing info on an upcoming product, but until you have more info, as some bit of advice, i would not be trying to push the whiteline product until more becomes available other than updates. i would have to say, lexus owners (i hope) are very critical of products they put on their car and if don't give in easily to hearsay or hype... we're are very use to products that are suppose to come out, yet nothing comes of it due to whatever reasons (market demand, r&d, not working at all). good luck on future posts and try not to get snooked on this board.
12-22-02, 04:28 PM
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808state, PCMW,
Its easy to see which side of fence you reside. Do you have any specific comments to the reply from Whiteline? Did Whiteline attack any other products or just give some suspension facts and repiles to the points in question? And most of all, defend the negative comments directed at Whiteline.
And PCMW, I like your summary. Nice touch to cover up the misinformation and generalize the topic. Do you have any scientific information? Or can you actually calculate the unsprung weight? There was such a big deal about this unsprung weight issue...I for one am glad that I have some additional information to this point. There is a reason why the Whiteline adjustable Supra Mkiv sway bars work wonderfully on my 92 SC400. I am very happy with the setup...and if Whiteline actually makes a sway bar set for the SC400/Soarer then all the better. I will still be happy with my setup and leave the Supra bars on my SC400.
As for Whiteline not knowing the exact weight....he does not have the part number Supra bar I used...nor can he weigh the SC400 stock sway. I did it...and had to make a correction. Plus, I just had a digital scale and it was hard to get the exact number as the bar is so long and I couldnt hang it to get a perfect number. The weight is just over double the stock SC bar just as Whiteline has said.
As for why the moderators have not clamped down on this thread and stopped Whiteline from a proper reply. I was told that a fitting reply will be allowed for this issue to clear up any misinformation. Thats all and I am glad this information is out there.
Its easy to see which side of fence you reside. Do you have any specific comments to the reply from Whiteline? Did Whiteline attack any other products or just give some suspension facts and repiles to the points in question? And most of all, defend the negative comments directed at Whiteline.
And PCMW, I like your summary. Nice touch to cover up the misinformation and generalize the topic. Do you have any scientific information? Or can you actually calculate the unsprung weight? There was such a big deal about this unsprung weight issue...I for one am glad that I have some additional information to this point. There is a reason why the Whiteline adjustable Supra Mkiv sway bars work wonderfully on my 92 SC400. I am very happy with the setup...and if Whiteline actually makes a sway bar set for the SC400/Soarer then all the better. I will still be happy with my setup and leave the Supra bars on my SC400.
As for Whiteline not knowing the exact weight....he does not have the part number Supra bar I used...nor can he weigh the SC400 stock sway. I did it...and had to make a correction. Plus, I just had a digital scale and it was hard to get the exact number as the bar is so long and I couldnt hang it to get a perfect number. The weight is just over double the stock SC bar just as Whiteline has said.
As for why the moderators have not clamped down on this thread and stopped Whiteline from a proper reply. I was told that a fitting reply will be allowed for this issue to clear up any misinformation. Thats all and I am glad this information is out there.
12-22-02, 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by ToyLexmods
808state, PCMW,
Its easy to see which side of fence you reside. Do you have any specific comments to the reply from Whiteline? Did Whiteline attack any other products or just give some suspension facts and repiles to the points in question? And most of all, defend the negative comments directed at Whiteline.
808state, PCMW,
Its easy to see which side of fence you reside. Do you have any specific comments to the reply from Whiteline? Did Whiteline attack any other products or just give some suspension facts and repiles to the points in question? And most of all, defend the negative comments directed at Whiteline.
the side i'm on is the people's side. not on whiteline/trd/daizen/ joe schooo side's. since i don't have any sway bar products, i can't defend nor offer endoresements. if anything, i'm probably the most partial. unlike yourself with whiteline. pcmw want's to do a reivew with the daizen and i think the trd setup since he has that. i know your a big fan of the whiteline since you have it...but are you partial???
if anything, i'm just pointing out the obvious...meaning.
if you're going to sell me a product, i need
A) credentials (i stated this already).
B) specifics on the NEW whiteline product. since whiteline does not have it...they can only put it out there
IT IS OBVIOUS THE EXISTING WHITELINE PRODUCT IS MADE FOR THE SUPRA BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T, THE DESIGN OF THEIR NEW LEXUS ONE WOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT. TO QUOTE WHITELINE:
Something else to keep in mind is that the swaybars we are referring to, aren't catalogued for the Lexus, and the ones that will be, are likely to be quite different anyway.
if people want to retrofit the existing product, then i suggest they see you since you've done it and have the info...but why would they with this new info about whiteline coming up with a newly designed lexus product?toylexmods...this is my point of view...this thread did not turn out the way it should have which was:
A) IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT WHITELINE IS COMING OUT WITH A MADE FOR LEXUS SWAY BAR.
B) YOU CAN'T MAKE A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE 2 BECAUSE IT WAS DESIGNED FOR 2 DIFFERENT CARS.
so how can i be on either side of the fence??? maybe you should look in a mirror before you state that
12-22-02, 06:49 PM
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Well I've had my initial response and that covered my thoughts pretty well...
Just a few minor points:
A very interesting comment, because I was basically saying the same thing of DW.
Spent just under 11 months driving across a broad spectrum of US roads on both coasts... and I reiterate my point that DW's comments on that point were a complete and utter fabrication.
Just a few minor points:
I think more people are interested in factual information, specs, and reviews of performance. People are not interested in your rants and slanderous comments
I understand you live in Aus and drive the roads, but to compare, do you drive often in the US?
Spent just under 11 months driving across a broad spectrum of US roads on both coasts... and I reiterate my point that DW's comments on that point were a complete and utter fabrication.
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12-22-02, 07:43 PM
#8
Hotgemini, I would like to clear things up. While DoubleWhoosh did make some comments about the WhiteLine sways in the earlier (and closed post), we already worked things out via email & PM. So please do not quote and bring up topics that ended a while back. Please do not bring up things with DW as this topic is about unsprung weight about swaybars and unsprung weight only.
ToyLexMods, check your PM.
808state, WhiteLine is allowed to come onto the boards and speak about the unsprung weight issue and nothing else. Thanks for the concern though.
ToyLexMods, check your PM.
808state, WhiteLine is allowed to come onto the boards and speak about the unsprung weight issue and nothing else. Thanks for the concern though.
12-22-02, 07:51 PM
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My concern here is thus, DW mades some comments which it seems you agree were... shall we say unfortunate? However as far as the public record stands, these comments are unrefuted which I would consider to be a rather unfortunate state of affairs. If there was some private discussion and/or resolution in regards to these *unfortunate* comments, then perhaps a post to that affect by a moderator onto the end of the initial thread?
12-22-02, 08:17 PM
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Hey Guys,
I am not about quibbling over details, nor talking bad about anybodies product(s). I am here merely to get all the information straight so a person coming to CL finds quality information on all "sides" of the issue. ToyLexMods, I apologize if you took comments directed toward other people wrong. I did direct these comments toward you and feel that you are defending the imaginary line. Once again, I apologize, I know that I like to defend certain mods to my car. I spent a long time defending my old Integra that would out handle most anything built after a load of custom made brackets, bars, and spring sets. So I feel for your position.
If we can all post FACTS and SPECS about the products and REVIEWS of how THOSE operate versus how other parts DO NOT operate then we can all move forward and squash the problem.
The facts as I see them...
Whitelines are supra bars...no big deal other than the $180 additional parts.
Whitelines are heavy
Heavy is bad unless it stffens dramatically.
Daizens are made for the SC
Daizens are stiffer
Geometry is critical when controlling ride and comfort with performance.
Please cut/paste this list and modify or add to it...
MW
I am not about quibbling over details, nor talking bad about anybodies product(s). I am here merely to get all the information straight so a person coming to CL finds quality information on all "sides" of the issue. ToyLexMods, I apologize if you took comments directed toward other people wrong. I did direct these comments toward you and feel that you are defending the imaginary line. Once again, I apologize, I know that I like to defend certain mods to my car. I spent a long time defending my old Integra that would out handle most anything built after a load of custom made brackets, bars, and spring sets. So I feel for your position.
If we can all post FACTS and SPECS about the products and REVIEWS of how THOSE operate versus how other parts DO NOT operate then we can all move forward and squash the problem.
The facts as I see them...
Whitelines are supra bars...no big deal other than the $180 additional parts.
Whitelines are heavy
Heavy is bad unless it stffens dramatically.
Daizens are made for the SC
Daizens are stiffer
Geometry is critical when controlling ride and comfort with performance.
Please cut/paste this list and modify or add to it...
MW
12-22-02, 08:20 PM
#11
According to the guidelines of the boards, us members are not allowed to instigate something between another member (pubically for that matter). If you wish to discuss your "issues" with DoubleWhoosh, private message him if you wish. You are speaking on behalf of WhiteLine (Paul). Choose your words wisely.
Refer to the Forum Rules if you have questions.
I would like to remind all of us that this is strictly an informational post.
Refer to the Forum Rules if you have questions.
I would like to remind all of us that this is strictly an informational post.
12-22-02, 08:27 PM
#12
I have the Whiteline bushings for my front control arms. They have yet to squeak even through the rain and snow we just had this month in Maryland. My bushings have been installed since August. The ride has not changed much. Steering may be tighter, but I am happy because the clunking is gone. 2 other people on this board have also installed the Whiteline bushings. SCV8 and chairmnoftheboard. They have only had good things to say about the bushings. Maybe since so few people have used the Whiteline bushes on a SC that one or two bad responses makes people feel the bushings are bad. We've had one member on this board have problems with the Daizen bushes. Does this mean that they are bad? No, it's because he installed them wrong. Whiteline bushings are not bad. They do their job. How much can you expect from polyurethane? Whiteline was the best because they had the only economical solution in August. Daizen did not exist then.
I do not own Swaybars so I have nothing to say about them.
Whiteline is not evil like some of you guys are thinking. I also don't know Whiteline.
However if I were to do it again, I would go with DoubleWhoosh since he is in the USA.
Oh yeah, please don't close this thread mods. Otherwise, we'll have hundreds of threads like these. And then you'll ban the whiteline people. Then we might lose valuable info.
I do not own Swaybars so I have nothing to say about them.
Whiteline is not evil like some of you guys are thinking. I also don't know Whiteline.
However if I were to do it again, I would go with DoubleWhoosh since he is in the USA.
Oh yeah, please don't close this thread mods. Otherwise, we'll have hundreds of threads like these. And then you'll ban the whiteline people. Then we might lose valuable info.
Last edited by verylost; 12-22-02 at 08:34 PM.
12-22-02, 09:37 PM
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808,
Thanks for the reply, but please remember the TRD bars are made for the Supra as well. Come on, we all realize the Supra bars work on the SC.....we are all on this board to further the performance of our SC. If members are willing to try Supra suspension parts to get that benefit...so be it. If companies come along and see a potential for the SC upgrade path...than so be it.
I am on the side of Whiteline. Plain and simple...I put these bars on and they work wonderfully. If I would have gone the TRD route...I would have been on the TRD side if they were good. Ditto for Diazen...
Oh, and very important point. Whiteline is not here to sell anybody anything. Period. 808 please realize that when you state that Whiteline has no product to "sell" us. Suspension tuning facts are just that.
808 writes....
the side i'm on is the people's side. not on whiteline/trd/daizen/ joe schooo side's. since i don't have any sway bar products, i can't defend nor offer endoresements. if anything, i'm probably the most partial. unlike yourself with whiteline. pcmw want's to do a reivew with the daizen and i think the trd setup since he has that. i know your a big fan of the whiteline since you have it...but are you partial???
if anything, i'm just pointing out the obvious...meaning.
if you're going to sell me a product, i need
A) credentials (i stated this already).
B) specifics on the NEW whiteline product. since whiteline does not have it...they can only put it out there
IT IS OBVIOUS THE EXISTING WHITELINE PRODUCT IS MADE FOR THE SUPRA BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T, THE DESIGN OF THEIR NEW LEXUS ONE WOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT. TO QUOTE WHITELINE:"
Thanks for the reply, but please remember the TRD bars are made for the Supra as well. Come on, we all realize the Supra bars work on the SC.....we are all on this board to further the performance of our SC. If members are willing to try Supra suspension parts to get that benefit...so be it. If companies come along and see a potential for the SC upgrade path...than so be it.
I am on the side of Whiteline. Plain and simple...I put these bars on and they work wonderfully. If I would have gone the TRD route...I would have been on the TRD side if they were good. Ditto for Diazen...
Oh, and very important point. Whiteline is not here to sell anybody anything. Period. 808 please realize that when you state that Whiteline has no product to "sell" us. Suspension tuning facts are just that.
808 writes....
the side i'm on is the people's side. not on whiteline/trd/daizen/ joe schooo side's. since i don't have any sway bar products, i can't defend nor offer endoresements. if anything, i'm probably the most partial. unlike yourself with whiteline. pcmw want's to do a reivew with the daizen and i think the trd setup since he has that. i know your a big fan of the whiteline since you have it...but are you partial???
if anything, i'm just pointing out the obvious...meaning.
if you're going to sell me a product, i need
A) credentials (i stated this already).
B) specifics on the NEW whiteline product. since whiteline does not have it...they can only put it out there
IT IS OBVIOUS THE EXISTING WHITELINE PRODUCT IS MADE FOR THE SUPRA BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T, THE DESIGN OF THEIR NEW LEXUS ONE WOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT. TO QUOTE WHITELINE:"
12-22-02, 09:40 PM
#14
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Hotgemini,
I realize why you have the fellings to defend some statements made against your country. Let us try to make these points without further causing an uprise and closing of this thread and any other thread that contains such info. I think if we stick to the facts the people of this board can come to his or her own conclusions on this matter.
I for one, enjoyed reading the post from Whiteline and hope he can add additional information to this subject. Thanks
I realize why you have the fellings to defend some statements made against your country. Let us try to make these points without further causing an uprise and closing of this thread and any other thread that contains such info. I think if we stick to the facts the people of this board can come to his or her own conclusions on this matter.
I for one, enjoyed reading the post from Whiteline and hope he can add additional information to this subject. Thanks
12-22-02, 09:53 PM
#15
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808,
In a single answer. No
>808 writes...
>"A) IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT WHITELINE IS COMING OUT >WITH A MADE FOR LEXUS SWAY BAR.
>B) YOU CAN'T MAKE A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE 2 BECAUSE IT >WAS DESIGNED FOR 2 DIFFERENT CARS.
>so how can i be on either side of the fence??? maybe you >should look in a mirror before you state that "
Whiteline is coming out with suspension tuning facts. Thats all. Why dont you speak up about DW's posts? Lets stick to suspension tuning facts. Do you dispute the Whiteline facts? What about what DW had to say? Do you want to learn how a suspension works? I do. I dont care about personal rantings and generalizations. I want to know why. Thats all.
Now for PCMW,
You want facts. Ok, lets look at your post. My questions are as follows.
1. Whitelines are heavier, big deal..I think Whiteline has talked about this and I like the answer. Can you refute this?
2. How can you state that heavier is bad? Where is your proof?
Please dont state facts as your observations. Facts are things like weight, size, proven quanities. Can you show any proven quanities in your statements?
>The facts as I see them...
>Whitelines are supra bars...no big deal other than the $180 >additional parts.
>Whitelines are heavy
>Heavy is bad unless it stffens dramatically.
>Daizens are made for the SC
>Daizens are stiffer
>Geometry is critical when controlling ride and comfort with >performance.
>Please cut/paste this list and modify or add to it...
In a single answer. No
>808 writes...
>"A) IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT WHITELINE IS COMING OUT >WITH A MADE FOR LEXUS SWAY BAR.
>B) YOU CAN'T MAKE A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE 2 BECAUSE IT >WAS DESIGNED FOR 2 DIFFERENT CARS.
>so how can i be on either side of the fence??? maybe you >should look in a mirror before you state that "
Whiteline is coming out with suspension tuning facts. Thats all. Why dont you speak up about DW's posts? Lets stick to suspension tuning facts. Do you dispute the Whiteline facts? What about what DW had to say? Do you want to learn how a suspension works? I do. I dont care about personal rantings and generalizations. I want to know why. Thats all.
Now for PCMW,
You want facts. Ok, lets look at your post. My questions are as follows.
1. Whitelines are heavier, big deal..I think Whiteline has talked about this and I like the answer. Can you refute this?
2. How can you state that heavier is bad? Where is your proof?
Please dont state facts as your observations. Facts are things like weight, size, proven quanities. Can you show any proven quanities in your statements?
>The facts as I see them...
>Whitelines are supra bars...no big deal other than the $180 >additional parts.
>Whitelines are heavy
>Heavy is bad unless it stffens dramatically.
>Daizens are made for the SC
>Daizens are stiffer
>Geometry is critical when controlling ride and comfort with >performance.
>Please cut/paste this list and modify or add to it...