View Poll Results: Need a camber kit for your GS?
Yes, I really need one!!
351
81.82%
No, I dont plan on lowering my car.
13
3.03%
No, I like eating the inside of my tires in 15K - 20K miles.
26
6.06%
What's a camber kit?
39
9.09%
Voters: 429. You may not vote on this poll
Need a Camber Kit for your GS?
10-10-06, 08:16 PM
#136
Driver
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: RI
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12-15-06, 03:30 PM
#143
Lead Lap
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: IN
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
03-16-07, 01:01 AM
#147
Lexus Test Driver
Ok, one last time......
Does anyone know FOR A FACT that it is their camber causing the problem? I have said it SO SO SO many times and it's like nobody is listening, so this truly is the final inquisition on this.
Do you KNOW FOR A FACT that you need additional camber adjustment? If yes, then what are your current alignment specs?
This is the starting point.
********************************
Also:
Are you aware that most (if not all) additional camber adjustment will REDUCE tire to fender clearance? Meaning that your tires WILL rub if they are close to rubbing now.
If your camber is around 1.25 (or even 1.5) degrees or less, it is probably your TOE setting that is causing the problem. This is caused either by bad toe settings, or worn bushings or something similar.
It is amazing how people have irregular tire wear, then immediately point to and blame the camber. "I need a camber kit! My tires are wearing out!" When in fact, these people have NO idea what their alignment specs are, what it would need to be to cause this problem, what the consequences of additional camber adjustment are, what actually causes certain types of tire wear, etc.
Oftentimes it's their not-so-knowing mechanic that tells them this, so unfortunately it just gets the misinformation domino effect started.
One more time, THESE CARS HAVE CHRONIC PROBLEMS WITH THE STRUT ROD/CASTER ARM BUSHINGS which is usually the cause of tire wear problems. Put a new arm, different bushings, whatever. That will more often than not fix it.
After I say this, people say, "my mechanic looked at it, the arms/bushings are ok." NOT! They might look ok, but they are not ok. This is just the nature of the beast with these cars. If someone doesn't know the intricacies of these cars, they will be fooled. Bottom line.
Also, the rear virtually ALWAYS has more camber issue than the front, but the requests for "I need a camber kit" are almost always for the front of the car. I always then ask, how are your rear tires? Then they get mad and say, "I didnt' say that! I don't need one in the rear, my rear tires are fine! I need one for the front I told you!" By virtue of logic, what does this tell you??
In any case, I can do something custom on the rear, but I have yet to find someone who can furnish some TRULY accurate current rear settings as a starting point, which would be the first step. From there, I actually have something I can do, but nobody has stepped up to the plate yet. Figure around $400 for this, but I'm not going to bother to get an exact figure until someone actually commits to it. $400 is probably pretty close though. Even if it's more I'll probably just stick to that price on the first one out of courtesy.
Funny how you put something real on the table and everyone scatters. Let's see what happens from here. Hopefully someone does this as I'm very interested to see how it works out in actual use.
Does anyone know FOR A FACT that it is their camber causing the problem? I have said it SO SO SO many times and it's like nobody is listening, so this truly is the final inquisition on this.
Do you KNOW FOR A FACT that you need additional camber adjustment? If yes, then what are your current alignment specs?
This is the starting point.
********************************
Also:
Are you aware that most (if not all) additional camber adjustment will REDUCE tire to fender clearance? Meaning that your tires WILL rub if they are close to rubbing now.
If your camber is around 1.25 (or even 1.5) degrees or less, it is probably your TOE setting that is causing the problem. This is caused either by bad toe settings, or worn bushings or something similar.
It is amazing how people have irregular tire wear, then immediately point to and blame the camber. "I need a camber kit! My tires are wearing out!" When in fact, these people have NO idea what their alignment specs are, what it would need to be to cause this problem, what the consequences of additional camber adjustment are, what actually causes certain types of tire wear, etc.
Oftentimes it's their not-so-knowing mechanic that tells them this, so unfortunately it just gets the misinformation domino effect started.
One more time, THESE CARS HAVE CHRONIC PROBLEMS WITH THE STRUT ROD/CASTER ARM BUSHINGS which is usually the cause of tire wear problems. Put a new arm, different bushings, whatever. That will more often than not fix it.
After I say this, people say, "my mechanic looked at it, the arms/bushings are ok." NOT! They might look ok, but they are not ok. This is just the nature of the beast with these cars. If someone doesn't know the intricacies of these cars, they will be fooled. Bottom line.
Also, the rear virtually ALWAYS has more camber issue than the front, but the requests for "I need a camber kit" are almost always for the front of the car. I always then ask, how are your rear tires? Then they get mad and say, "I didnt' say that! I don't need one in the rear, my rear tires are fine! I need one for the front I told you!" By virtue of logic, what does this tell you??
In any case, I can do something custom on the rear, but I have yet to find someone who can furnish some TRULY accurate current rear settings as a starting point, which would be the first step. From there, I actually have something I can do, but nobody has stepped up to the plate yet. Figure around $400 for this, but I'm not going to bother to get an exact figure until someone actually commits to it. $400 is probably pretty close though. Even if it's more I'll probably just stick to that price on the first one out of courtesy.
Funny how you put something real on the table and everyone scatters. Let's see what happens from here. Hopefully someone does this as I'm very interested to see how it works out in actual use.
03-16-07, 10:02 AM
#148
Ok, one last time......
If your camber is around 1.25 (or even 1.5) degrees or less, it is probably your TOE setting that is causing the problem. This is caused either by bad toe settings, or worn bushings or something similar.
It is amazing how people have irregular tire wear, then immediately point to and blame the camber. "I need a camber kit! My tires are wearing out!" When in fact, these people have NO idea what their alignment specs are, what it would need to be to cause this problem, what the consequences of additional camber adjustment are, what actually causes certain types of tire wear, etc.
If your camber is around 1.25 (or even 1.5) degrees or less, it is probably your TOE setting that is causing the problem. This is caused either by bad toe settings, or worn bushings or something similar.
It is amazing how people have irregular tire wear, then immediately point to and blame the camber. "I need a camber kit! My tires are wearing out!" When in fact, these people have NO idea what their alignment specs are, what it would need to be to cause this problem, what the consequences of additional camber adjustment are, what actually causes certain types of tire wear, etc.
I'm glad you stepped up once more to point out that camber DOES NOT have to be the cause of this tire wear problem. (Applicable to cars lowered down to roughly a zero finger gap. Slammed with bags does not count in this statement)
In NorCal, some veteran CL members and myself have worked very closely with a local high end alignment shop to ELIMINATE front inner tire wear problems on dropped GS's.
I can tell you that from working with this shop for over 4 years, I have studied their alignment specs and the tire wear results on local members cars in order to evaluate and try to understand this issue.
Todd, your past recommendations as well were factored into my following conclusions:
1. Common sense says that if your car is lowered, different sways, bushings, tire/wheel sizes, wheel offsets, etc. than that means "you" have a modified suspension = factory alignment specs are NOT ideal.
When an engine is modified, especially with FI, no one thinks twice about having the engine TUNED for optimum performance. So when it comes to modified suspensions, it makes sense to have an alignment specialist TUNE your alignment settings. Anyone who follows auto racing knows that race teams spend many hours and test laps to TUNE their suspension for optimum performance, because every car they have and track they race is different. You can't just set it and forget it.
2. On another point, unless worn bushings, ball joints, poor tire balance, etc. are checked and verified as NON-issues, your problems will not go away with a simple alignment.
I would say well over 50% of those with issues have not ruled out these other items before making the conclusion that they have a camber problem.
3. Achieving factory spec on camber is not possible beyond a certain drop. If that is the case, the toe must be adjusted to compensate for the increased inner wear.
4. Even if you can obtain factory spec it does not mean you have the ideal alignment for proper tire wear. (see item #1)
5. Knowing how much toe to increase is not a constant value. There are many factors in determining what the toe angle should be.
6. Some of these factors are: drop, camber, castor, tire/wheel size, wheel offset, driver weight, stereo equipment weight, to name a few.
7. You cannot just "copy" someones toe settings and assume you are good if your drop, tire size, etc. are not all the same. On top of that, all cars vary slightly from one another in specification, so there's no easy way to tell what other items may factor in to your ideal toe setting and whether or not it will work on another car if they copy it.
We are very fortunate in NorCal to have a specialized alignment shop that specializes in custom suspensions, including race cars and also has a successful racing experience running and TUNING their own cars.
I believe finding a shop that Knows modded Lexus and Knows how to TUNE a suspension is probably going to be a challenge for a lot of members. The same case holds true when searching for a "Reputable" tuner for our modded engines right?
I hope this sheds a bit more light on this commonly mis-understood subject.
Good Luck to all in finding the RIGHT alignment shop in your area.
Thanks again Todd for your contributions to the CL community. There are very few vendors that have the depth and technical expertise that you provide.
I'm sure that anyone who has personally met you and talked "tech" would agree. I'm so glad you chose to be Passionate about Lexus versus another make.
Last edited by RMMGS4; 03-16-07 at 10:49 AM.
03-17-07, 01:40 PM
#149
Pole Position
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RMMGS4 - Could you elaborate on the "tuning"? The alignments I've had done have tried to match factory specs. I think you're saying not to use factory numbers because the car has been lowered thus the geometry will be different. Everwhere I've been the tech's are looking at computer monitors trying to get the specs in the "green zone". So what do I need to tell the tech when getting an alignment? If there is no "reference number" how are they doing an alignment?
Last edited by RacerLex; 03-17-07 at 02:33 PM.
03-17-07, 02:05 PM
#150
those shops are just doing what the computers are telling them to do. Any monkey can turn the tie rod and get it to the green section. But any real performance shop that deals with alignments on a daily basis would at least take into consideration of what mods you have. A local shop near here called West End in Gardena, CA does alignment for many modded cars. They use the old method way of aligning. Before you do your alignment, the guy asks you what your driving habits are, what type of driving style you're looking for, and then he takes everything into consideration.
Factory spec is good for just that...factory cars. I have L-tuned suspension so my drop isn't major. The toes are at 0 degrees, but camber is about -0.8 all around. No irregular tire wear here!
Factory spec is good for just that...factory cars. I have L-tuned suspension so my drop isn't major. The toes are at 0 degrees, but camber is about -0.8 all around. No irregular tire wear here!