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Brake Upgrade Necessary?

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Old 09-20-16, 02:27 PM
  #16  
CatManD3W
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Agree to disagree....

Brembo uses aluminum calipers and floating discs for their gt brake systems.

Technically the steel/cast iron caliper of mk4 would get hotter than the ls400 aluminum

Last edited by CatManD3W; 09-20-16 at 02:36 PM.
Old 09-20-16, 02:33 PM
  #17  
KahnBB6
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^^ I guess Rxrodger's statement confused me too in that case. I understood it to mean that A1 Cardone and Advance Auto have reman calipers that are rebuilt to spec better than Autozone remans but I think I must have misinterpreted his post? I've also never heard of aftermarket LS400 calipers or aftermarket TT calipers. The remans sold through these businesses are all originals that are reconditioned. They're the same thing as new ones, just remanufactured. Perhaps A1 Cardone and Advance Auto just take better care with their remans...?

I'll say again that I'm happy with the calipers I bought new... but I really do not think anyone needs to spend that much and if I had it to do over again I would buy reman or used. At the time I got mine (2011) I didn't know any better. My rear TT calipers were bought used off supraforums a few years later and they have worked well for three years and counting, absolutely perfect.

Ali has laid out the differences between the two calipers very effectively so I have little to add to his statements. Both are worthwhile upgrades and will work equally well for most cars. The TT's do resist fade better to to their being cast iron but the benefits, as Ali said, are really only noticed if you brake constantly during very hard driving or on a track. Even then, LS400 brakes are an affordable and very effective performance braking upgrade on SC's that are driven hard.

When getting into very high horsepower dedicated track SC's or MKIV Supras I have read about people switching to Corvette 6-piston front calipers or some other adapted caliper solution but OP, you're nowhere near needing to consider that extreme. Believe me, LS400 calipers will do just fine and should fit your budget right now. Pad selection should also have grown for LS400 calipers in the last few years. For instance I believe Hawk makes an HPS set for them now (specified for a 95-00 LS400).

Last edited by KahnBB6; 09-20-16 at 02:38 PM.
Old 09-20-16, 03:57 PM
  #18  
Ali SC3
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Originally Posted by CatManD3W
Agree to disagree....

Brembo uses aluminum calipers and floating discs for their gt brake systems.

Technically the steel/cast iron caliper of mk4 would get hotter than the ls400 aluminum
Yeah you know I have wondered how much it really helps also but that is what I have read and was told.
Maybe they went with it cause it is a harder material so it won't flex or warp under severe braking.. or just so it ill last forever like the 2jz blocks.. something like that but really I haven't heard of anyone messing up a ls400 caliper. not really sure but there must be a reason they went with a super heavy caliper when they had the aluminum ones they were using on the LS and the trucks, they have had 4 piston aluminum calipers on even the old trucks and 4runners for years prior.

I think Brembo just didn't think whatever it was is worth the extra weight, sometimes oem decisions are a little funny that way.
I am sure using larger pistons and using more pistons worked just as well without all the weight, but I do wonder if it was really for heat dissipation or something else, I do think that they are more resistant to fade just from what I have read from people who have had both setups. I Still prefer the aluminum LS calipers and my back does too when installing them.
The TT calipers have those kind of fin like pattern on it, the ls400 just has one line across it.
I remember even the my stock sc300 95 calipers were significantly heavier than the ls400's that went on, so heavy they sat in a corner of my garage for a year before I finally decided to haul them all the way to the trash lol.

either one is a solid choice for the sc cause its bolt on an braking will be much improved, can't really go wrong with either choice.

Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-20-16 at 04:03 PM.
Old 09-20-16, 07:31 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Ali SC3
not really sure but there must be a reason they went with a super heavy caliper when they had the aluminum ones they were using on the LS and the trucks...
I'm talking out of my you know what here, but my assumption is, Toyota was pretty lazy with some of those decisions and this was one of them. The LS got the brake upgrade in '95, but the SC never got it through '00. The obvious choice lost out to corporate inertia in both cases. Ditto for the underwhelming truck transmissions they kept slapping on everything in the name of reliability.
Old 09-20-16, 08:30 PM
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Sorry for the confusion, my point was buy the cheapest AutoZone/Advance/Oreilly/Pep Boys/Rock Auto calipers and don't worry about it. We put 1000 degrees or more in these on the race track and never have an issue. I bought a back up set, just in case I run into a problem on a race weekend, and I think I paid $112 for both. Maybe I misunderstood Kahn's original comment when he said buy OEM, I thought he meant OEM not rebuilt OEM which they all are right?. As far as which aftermarket is better my experience is they are just all about the same, not a nickles difference between any of them.
Old 09-20-16, 09:03 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by t2d2
I'm talking out of my you know what here, but my assumption is, Toyota was pretty lazy with some of those decisions and this was one of them. The LS got the brake upgrade in '95, but the SC never got it through '00. The obvious choice lost out to corporate inertia in both cases. Ditto for the underwhelming truck transmissions they kept slapping on everything in the name of reliability.
Given that both the Supra MKIV and Soarer production lines saw numerous drivetrain and other revisions to both models in 1996 (Japan) I highly doubt it was a lazy decision on Toyota's part to construct the TT brakes from cast iron. It probably had more to do with onerous long term reliability for the type of car it was and the expected use of it. Compare it to the ridiculous overbuilding of the 1JZ and 2JZ engines.

By underwhelming truck transmissions, which are you referring to? The W58? R154? The many variants of the A340 automatic? The two 5-speed manuals may not be as refined as today's RWD manual gearboxes but I never for a second found either of them underwhelming.

Originally Posted by RXRodger
Sorry for the confusion, my point was buy the cheapest AutoZone/Advance/Oreilly/Pep Boys/Rock Auto calipers and don't worry about it. We put 1000 degrees or more in these on the race track and never have an issue. I bought a back up set, just in case I run into a problem on a race weekend, and I think I paid $112 for both. Maybe I misunderstood Kahn's original comment when he said buy OEM, I thought he meant OEM not rebuilt OEM which they all are right?. As far as which aftermarket is better my experience is they are just all about the same, not a nickles difference between any of them.
Ah! I think we both misunderstood each other. This I completely agree with Yes, what I meant in my original post was that ALL are "OEM" no matter where you get them from. Also that I don't regret having bought my front TT calipers brand new from a dealer (NOT at MSRP though) *five years ago* since I have had trouble-free use and excellent braking power... but... that if I had to do it all over again today I would just find a reman set or used set of calipers. Today I know better that it really doesn't matter where you get a set of brake calipers from as long as you're buying the correct type that has been gone over.

I figured it didn't matter particularly where someone bought remans from.
Old 09-20-16, 09:20 PM
  #22  
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I really appreciate all of the feedback. I will probably just get a set from a parts store. For me it's worth the slight price difference to avoid cleaning off 20 years of grease and gunk that I see on many of the ebay/used sets.

As far as rear brakes, is it worth getting LS400/TT rear brakes also, or are the fronts sufficient? Just for the sake of matching I would like a full front and rear set, but if it's 10% more performance for 100% more cost then I'll live without them.

The last question that I can think of is about rotors. I was thinking about getting Brembo blanks, but are they worth it? I'm pretty sure it's around $300 for the LS400 front set. Would I be better off getting OEM rotors or other rotors? I was originally planning on buying drilled/slotted, but then I read that they are less reliable, chew up pads, can crack, etc, etc. I don't want any problems. As I said before, I want as much of a performance increase as possible while still maintaining oem reliability.

Lastly, upon closer inspection I saw that my oem S300 calipers are VERY close to touching my wheels. Like credit card thickness close. Maybe I've had too many grocery getters but that seems awfully weird for a supposedly bone stock car. Is this normal or do I have upgrades that I don't know about lol?

I'd also like to mention that when I bought the car the brake fluid was dark. The brakes feel spongy and I want my baby taken care of, so I am taking it to the dealership in about a week to have the brake fluid changed. I'm assuming they know what they're doing but this car does take DOT 3 fluid right? I called a local private shop and they quoted $60 less than the Toyota dealership, but they said that they use DOT 4 fluid. I was under the impression that DOT 4 fluid has something in it that can damage my OEM DOT 3 system...

I guess I'll see what they say about the rest of my brakes and decide what upgrades I'll do from there. I really don't want to buy SC300 pads or rotors because I plan on upgrading in a couple of months anyways... The car is honestly a little scary to stop in though, at least compared to my friends 2015 Civic. After driving my car and his back to back his brakes were so much better that that I nearly used abs at the first stop sign lol.

EDIT: just for the record, I would LOVE to change the fluid myself, but I currently live in an HOA community, I have no garage, and my driveway is slanted. I am supposed to be moving to a much more car friendly place at the end of the year and then I won't get raped paying for labor. In the mean time I honestly trust nobody besides a Toyota or Lexus dealership. Unfortunately they're charging me $150 just to change the brake fluid...

Last edited by oSUPRAo; 09-20-16 at 09:26 PM.
Old 09-20-16, 10:15 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by KahnBB6
Given that both the Supra MKIV and Soarer production lines saw numerous drivetrain and other revisions to both models in 1996 (Japan) I highly doubt it was a lazy decision on Toyota's part to construct the TT brakes from cast iron. It probably had more to do with onerous long term reliability for the type of car it was and the expected use of it. Compare it to the ridiculous overbuilding of the 1JZ and 2JZ engines.
But like was mentioned previously, where's the evidence that aluminum calipers are less reliable, given the aftermarket's choices? The TT cast iron brakes came out two years before the LS aluminum brakes, right?

Aren't the TT rotors bigger than the LS ones? I imagine that's the only area where the TT brakes perform better.

The SC also got a few revisions along the way, such as VVTi, but it enjoyed a fairly long cycle with little more than a 5-year face lift and no brake upgrade that wouldn't have taken any more effort than just saying "yes" to shared parts. It can't have been a profit margin thing. The less costly LS was getting more expensive parts.

By underwhelming truck transmissions, which are you referring to? The W58? R154? The many variants of the A340 automatic? The two 5-speed manuals may not be as refined as today's RWD manual gearboxes but I never for a second found either of them underwhelming.
Basically the '90s automatics and the R154. They do their job, but people are always eager to upgrade to something better. I don't recall anyone outside the Toyota/Lexus family of cars salivating over a Toyota tranny, but there's plenty of it the opposite direction.
Old 09-21-16, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by oSUPRAo
I really appreciate all of the feedback. I will probably just get a set from a parts store. For me it's worth the slight price difference to avoid cleaning off 20 years of grease and gunk that I see on many of the ebay/used sets.
Good idea. This is how I'd do it if I was in your shoes. Plus they'll already be properly rebuilt, lubed, and carry a small warranty.

Originally Posted by oSUPRAo
As far as rear brakes, is it worth getting LS400/TT rear brakes also, or are the fronts sufficient? Just for the sake of matching I would like a full front and rear set, but if it's 10% more performance for 100% more cost then I'll live without them.
The fronts should be sufficient. I believe the rear rotors on the SC300 are actually bigger than the fronts to begin with. Also, I'd begin to worry about things like brake bias by upgrading the F/R without touching the master cylinder. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on either point.

Originally Posted by oSUPRAo
The last question that I can think of is about rotors. I was thinking about getting Brembo blanks, but are they worth it? I'm pretty sure it's around $300 for the LS400 front set. Would I be better off getting OEM rotors or other rotors? I was originally planning on buying drilled/slotted, but then I read that they are less reliable, chew up pads, can crack, etc, etc. I don't want any problems. As I said before, I want as much of a performance increase as possible while still maintaining oem reliability.
My preference on my daily drivers, HPDE track car, and pretty much any other car I touch is a good quality vented blank rotor. My preference is Centric Premium - Centric provides OEM blanks for A LOT of manufacturers. Next choice is Bendix or Raybestos mid-grade stuff. These usually run $45 - $70 a rotor depending on size and shipping. I stay away from drilled rotors on every car I own. Slotted, I'm ok with if it's what I can get.

Originally Posted by oSUPRAo
Lastly, upon closer inspection I saw that my oem S300 calipers are VERY close to touching my wheels. Like credit card thickness close. Maybe I've had too many grocery getters but that seems awfully weird for a supposedly bone stock car. Is this normal or do I have upgrades that I don't know about lol?
I don't remember how close my stock calipers were to the wheels. If you upgrade to a set of LS400 fronts you will need to check your clearances. Most people run aftermarket wheels, spacers, or sometimes both to fit them. These things are fixed in place so really any amount of clearance is ok.

Originally Posted by oSUPRAo
I'd also like to mention that when I bought the car the brake fluid was dark. The brakes feel spongy and I want my baby taken care of, so I am taking it to the dealership in about a week to have the brake fluid changed. I'm assuming they know what they're doing but this car does take DOT 3 fluid right? I called a local private shop and they quoted $60 less than the Toyota dealership, but they said that they use DOT 4 fluid. I was under the impression that DOT 4 fluid has something in it that can damage my OEM DOT 3 system...
Only difference between DOT3 and DOT4 is the boiling point with DOT4 being higher. They are fine to be mixed, although they should completely flush and refill the system with one or the other. In a street driven car you won't exceed the boiling point of DOT3 anyway, but DOT4 is newer and cheaper so most places use it. Just to confuse you a bit more.... DOT5 is bad for your car. DOT5.1 is ok to mix with DOT3/4, it just has the highest boiling point of the 3.
Old 09-21-16, 04:07 AM
  #25  
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If I buy StopTech ss brake lines for the SC300 brakes and then I upgrade to the LS400 fronts later can I still use the SC300 stainless lines? I decided that I want to get them but I don't want to have to buy them twice...
Old 09-21-16, 09:53 AM
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the lines are the same yes they will work on either caliper, but you can use oem lines they work fine, It brakes so hard with oem lines and ls400 calipers I almost hit my head on the steering wheel the first time I slammed the brakes. save that money for the brakes, the lines are just a bling item.

also the only ones that work on the rear and are an upgrade are the TT rears, the ls400 rears is not an option for our cars or they are the same size as stock I forget but no one does them.

The TT calipers did come out before the LS ones, but as I said the trucks have been using aluminum 4 caliper pistons since the late 80's on v6 equipped trucks so they knew the about that technology. they just decided to go with the big cast units for some reason, probably longevity and reliability if not performance oriented. I don't think they would be adding weight for no reason when they were subtracting as much as possible elsewhere.

Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-21-16 at 09:57 AM.
Old 09-21-16, 10:26 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Ali SC3
I don't think they would be adding weight for no reason when they were subtracting as much as possible elsewhere.
I'm of the opinion that Toyota/Lexus was extremely inconsistent in that area. The SC supposedly had a strict gram shaving directive, but there are numerous examples where they were wide left. I think the company tried to cut weight, but it wasn't something they were particularly good at at the time, so they whiffed here and there.
Old 09-21-16, 11:06 AM
  #28  
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True, I'll give you that one. All I know is that the LS400 aluminum calipers are awesome and what I would slap on any SC even over TT calipers, its like a entry level brembo caliper upgrade that costs nothing and bolts on. Only thing better is if they had put them on the SC originally.
Old 09-22-16, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by t2d2
But like was mentioned previously, where's the evidence that aluminum calipers are less reliable, given the aftermarket's choices? The TT cast iron brakes came out two years before the LS aluminum brakes, right?

The SC also got a few revisions along the way, such as VVTi, but it enjoyed a fairly long cycle with little more than a 5-year face lift and no brake upgrade that wouldn't have taken any more effort than just saying "yes" to shared parts. It can't have been a profit margin thing. The less costly LS was getting more expensive parts.
There is NO evidence that the aluminum calipers are less reliable than the cast-iron TT calipers. Both are exceptionally reliable and durable. However Supra TT's had the big cast iron caliper option throughout the entire model's production run until late 2002 (Japan). This was after the 2JZ-GE and 2JZ-GTE both got VVT-i (Japan), and after the V160 was updated to the V161 (Japan) all in 1996. Front lower control arms were also updated to aluminum rather than cast iron at that time (Japan & Export). To update those things and not update the brake calipers during such a major revision to a flagship model has to have counted for something. Perhaps it's as simple as sticking to the R&D data for the TT calipers that they had finalized in 1991-92 and choosing not to change that aspect. If a worthwhile change was to be made then that would have been the time to do it (1996 for Japan models).

All 1991-2000 Soarers, apart from the Japan-market JZZ31 2JZ-GE Automatic (I believe this is the only exception) all got the same size calipers front and rear as USA-spec 92-00 SC400's, 98-00 SC300's and 93-98 Supra MKIV NA's. Only our 92-97 SC300's got the smallest rotors in the USA.

Originally Posted by t2d2
Aren't the TT rotors bigger than the LS ones? I imagine that's the only area where the TT brakes perform better.
Very slightly. Both caliper types have much bigger rotors than any stock SC or Soarer so really I consider either system sufficient on these cars. Fade resistance on the street and highway are good with both if using OEM TT pads on the TT calipers or a compound like Hawk HPS on either TT or LS400 calipers.

Originally Posted by t2d2
Basically the '90s automatics and the R154. They do their job, but people are always eager to upgrade to something better. I don't recall anyone outside the Toyota/Lexus family of cars salivating over a Toyota tranny, but there's plenty of it the opposite direction.
The automatics I agree with you on. I have to disagree with you about the R154 though. While not a perfect design itself it is extremely tough compared to any other 5-speed produced before it or during the same time (all W58's) and with the exception of the V160/161 6-speed it is far more durable and reliable than the RWD RA62 6-speed manual gearbox used in the IS250, Toyota Mark X GRMN and some trucks. Maybe it begins to show the limitations of a 1986 design when you take it past 500whp but that is, realistically, a lot of power and Toyota never sold it in a performance car that made 500whp to begin with. Personally... in day to day driving I have found it to be an extremely easy transmission to use that does not frustrate when shifting. My basis for opinion on that is with a freshly rebuilt R154 that I bought with just a hair over 100k in previous mileage (verified with the donor car's odometer). A V160 or a brand new Tremec Magnum 6-speed will both be much better in all respects but my point is that within what most people would consider normal use and reasonable power for a performance car the R154 is still very good.

.....

Back on topic... oSUPRAo, I also recommend either Brembo blank OEM-spec rotors or Centric blank OEM-spec rotors. I have used both with my TT brake setup. Currently I am on Centrics. I haven't been able to tell a difference between the two brands. I just buy whatever is more available or affordable at the time. Brembo and Centric are both very good companies and all you need is a plain vented OEM-spec rotor. You don't need to buy OEM rotors from the dealer. Just find either of the aforementioned brands at some place like Tire Rack. Just order the correct rotor to match whichever front braking system you are going with (I assume LS400 calipers).

Regarding the TT rears... they will work with either the front TT calipers or front LS400 calipers. I did notice a difference after having installed them in my car which already had the TT fronts. However my car being a 92-97 SC300 I also have smaller stock calipers than your 98-00 SC300. I imagine this also factored in. What the TT rear calipers do is re-balance the brake bias to a more neutral state between front and rear. I did find that this helped with braking confidence and chassis stability under very aggressive driving maneuvers and with repeated braking, however I do not feel they are absolutely necessary. Your 98-00 rear calipers are already larger than the 92-97 rear calipers and so I think the brake bias towards the front will be even less noticeable than what I felt when I first upgraded my front brakes.

Furthermore, until you get into your very high horsepower build I do not feel they are needed. When you get to 700whp or wherever you feel you want to build to then yet, I'd recommend you have them on there just because you will want every bit of braking improvement you can get. With an NA engine and just LS400 front calipers... or even a mild turbo engine and just LS400 front calipers... I think you will be fine.

Really, until you get into insane horsepower levels I do not feel these cars need anything int he braking department beyond the LS400 caliper swap or if an owner prefers... the TT calipers. Factory original stopping power, however, I do agree feels a bit scary. It was to me when I first got my car. I personally feel at minimum the LS400 aluminum calipers should have been standard equipment for the entire model run on all SC300/400's and Soarers regardless of their horsepower output.

Last edited by KahnBB6; 09-22-16 at 12:56 PM.
Old 09-22-16, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by KahnBB6
There is NO evidence that the aluminum calipers are less reliable than the cast-iron TT calipers.
Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, misread what I said or reinforcing my question...

Front lower control arms were also updated to aluminum rather than cast iron at that time (Japan & Export).
Huh. That could explain the confusion about SC and Supra LCAs differing. Did that make it to the US market?

To update those things and not update the brake calipers during such a major revision to a flagship model has to have counted for something.
Yeah, it counts for about as much as using identical rear brakes on the SC and LS, updating the LS fronts, and leaving the SC unchanged.

The automatics I agree with you on. I have to disagree with you about the R154 though. While not a perfect design itself it is extremely tough compared to any other 5-speed produced before it or during the same time
My point exactly. Toyota built truck-tough, "not too bad" trannys that few if any choose for other platforms (unless they want the easiest mating option to a Toyota engine swap) because they're underwhelming in other areas. Yet we've got half a dozen different tranny swaps from other cars into SCs and even Supras being explored.


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