Akebono Pads - Proact vs. Performance
#16
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But we're not talking about Lexus black vs blue pads. The Akebono is a performance ceramic pad. It's not an OEM replacement for the blue pads, it's a replacement for the F Sport black pads. Also like I mentioned in other posts, maybe they aren't as good when tracked but I'm talking about spirited daily driving you are not going to notice a difference (other than not having to replace your pads and rotors as often and the lack of dust).
Also this discussion is in relation to the IS not an M3 or other higher performing sports car. It's all relative to what the performance of the vehicle is, much like tires
Also this discussion is in relation to the IS not an M3 or other higher performing sports car. It's all relative to what the performance of the vehicle is, much like tires
Last edited by Burrcold; 06-26-18 at 03:51 PM.
#17
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I see. But still you live in Toronto where it's cold and everyone is on a/s tires. Maybe I use my cars differently than you might and that's fair. You can get by with friendly brake pads. People do every day. I'm just talking under heavy use/high performance.
There's still a tradeoff with your pads. They may be some kind of blend where they add other stuff in it for "performance" but by definition if the pad isn't shedding itself (dust) then the friction level is lower. Good pads aren't friendly to ears, your wheels, or your rotors.
My point in mentioning performance vehicles (the BMWs i speak of are not necessarily all ///Ms.) I've owned 7 BMWs, 5 of them non ///Ms, all with extremely high brake dust but very high performing brakes. Just saying it's the nature of the beast.
We had these same arguments in the BMW world. 3 series guys using akebono pads cause they didn't like the dust then complained about stopping power (usually cold bite). In one instance, one guy even got into an accident when a car pulled out in front of him. I think Mercedes did a test on this too showing the dangers of aftermarket "friendly" pads. 1-3 cars longer stopping distance. Anyway,
We can agree to disagree but I'm telling you from canyon and track experience, the better brakes make a lot of noise and a lot of dust. just the way it is and that's why Lexus equipped what they did for the F Sport. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
There's still a tradeoff with your pads. They may be some kind of blend where they add other stuff in it for "performance" but by definition if the pad isn't shedding itself (dust) then the friction level is lower. Good pads aren't friendly to ears, your wheels, or your rotors.
My point in mentioning performance vehicles (the BMWs i speak of are not necessarily all ///Ms.) I've owned 7 BMWs, 5 of them non ///Ms, all with extremely high brake dust but very high performing brakes. Just saying it's the nature of the beast.
We had these same arguments in the BMW world. 3 series guys using akebono pads cause they didn't like the dust then complained about stopping power (usually cold bite). In one instance, one guy even got into an accident when a car pulled out in front of him. I think Mercedes did a test on this too showing the dangers of aftermarket "friendly" pads. 1-3 cars longer stopping distance. Anyway,
We can agree to disagree but I'm telling you from canyon and track experience, the better brakes make a lot of noise and a lot of dust. just the way it is and that's why Lexus equipped what they did for the F Sport. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
#18
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Lol it's not exactly "cold" in Toronto...it will be in the 90's by the weekend. In any case, yes it's not hot like Cali but that doesn't mean we drive with all season tires and "friendly" brakes all season! I've had high performance cars in my past as well and heard the same arguments. Hell I had ceramic pads on my G35 Coupe 14 years ago (which I had a twin turbo setup installed on it), and that stopped like a champ.
Again, I've said before that there definitely is a trade off in high performance vehicles and high stress braking situations (I.e. track use), but for a compact vehicle that is packing a ~300 crank hp engine, we are not talking high performance (any more so than a V6 Camry or the new Accord). There is a reason why, for the most part the non F Sport is exactly the same, yet still gets a low dust pad. Are you saying that vehicle is unsafe in hard braking situation? Should people be concerned about accidents? In that case everyone should be driving the F Sport model just for the brakes!
I digress, you are right...agree to disagree.
Again, I've said before that there definitely is a trade off in high performance vehicles and high stress braking situations (I.e. track use), but for a compact vehicle that is packing a ~300 crank hp engine, we are not talking high performance (any more so than a V6 Camry or the new Accord). There is a reason why, for the most part the non F Sport is exactly the same, yet still gets a low dust pad. Are you saying that vehicle is unsafe in hard braking situation? Should people be concerned about accidents? In that case everyone should be driving the F Sport model just for the brakes!
I digress, you are right...agree to disagree.
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Flash5 (06-26-18)
#19
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There's also a reason BMWs have been praised for decades for its world class brakes but notorious for having "BMW brake dust." Ask any performance BMW owner (or Porsche for that matter) and they'll tell you about their wheels turning black. If there was a secret sauce for having your cake and eating it too (high performance and no dust) some billion dollar automaker would've found it by now.
You may perceive your car as not having any brake degradation cause you can physically stop it "fast." with your akebono low dust pads. you'll even be able to engage ABS during a panic stop (as any Camry can) but there is a difference, particularly under high stress repeated stops, particularly with high performance tires.
Not to say the F Sport pads are the end all be all. It's still a street pad. You just have to decide where on the spectrum you want to be and that nothing comes for free
You may perceive your car as not having any brake degradation cause you can physically stop it "fast." with your akebono low dust pads. you'll even be able to engage ABS during a panic stop (as any Camry can) but there is a difference, particularly under high stress repeated stops, particularly with high performance tires.
Not to say the F Sport pads are the end all be all. It's still a street pad. You just have to decide where on the spectrum you want to be and that nothing comes for free
#20
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So I ordered the ASP1118’s today and as soon as I get them I’m going to install them. I’ll update you guys when I get them installed and stuff. I can’t handle the brake dust anymore it’s pissing me off haha. ![Mad](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif)
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#21
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I actually really like the aggressive bite of the factory F-Sport pads but couldn't take the crazy amount of brake dust. Let us know how the new Akebonos work out for you. I didn't like the ceramic version at all
#22
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#23
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Yes sir. I ended switching them out with HAWK HPS, which I really like, though they do not have the initial bite the factory F-Sport pad has. They bite and modulate better than the factory pads as you depress the brake pedal but the initial bite isn't as good as the stock pads. Better than the ACT's though so I am curious to see how the ASP's work out.
#24
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Yes sir. I ended switching them out with HAWK HPS, which I really like, though they do not have the initial bite the factory F-Sport pad has. They bite and modulate better than the factory pads as you depress the brake pedal but the initial bite isn't as good as the stock pads. Better than the ACT's though so I am curious to see how the ASP's work out.
#25
Lexus Test Driver
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I don’t agree with you at all. I have used different types of pads and what really makes a difference is number of pistons in your calipers. There is a reason they make big brake kits. While the pads may make a LITTLE difference it’s almost never noticeable. I have the Performance Akebono full ceramic pads on my G37S which has 4 piston front calipers and 2 piston rears and the braking power is WAY better than the 4 piston front and 1 piston rear on our F Sports and I have the OE pads on the car not to mention both cars are about the same weight. You preach about the pads but really the tires and the brake pistons make the real difference in stopping and braking.
The main components to how well a car stops is friction between the pad and rotor, how fast (in milliseconds) that friction can be achieved repetitively (ABS), and the same for the tire to road interface. Basically how much tire is on the ground and how well it can hold the road. How well a car can do this back to back to back to back is another story. I wouldn't necessarily zero in on number of pistons. Not what you have but how you use it sort of thing.
Also if you want to compare pads, you'd have to do so on the same vehicles w/ same tires. For example a Porsche will probably stop faster on all seasons than a camry will on track tires.
Not knocking you on your decision to get ceramics. I'm more knocking you for suggesting there's no performance price to be paid using them. I'm sure you like them and they work well for your use. For performance minded drivers though, ceramics is a compromise. It offers "almost as good" initial friction, not as good heat resistance/fade resistance, but offers low dust and is more expensive. That sums up ceramics, regardless of whether or not the word "performance" is added to the sales literature.
#26
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Here is a from a technical website. Copy/paste, say it better than I could:
On the other hand, while semi-metallic pads do produce more noise and dust, they’re arguably the more versatile of the two. They are more effective over a wider range of temperatures and have a much higher thermal threshold. They provide better cold bite than ceramic pads and maintain much more consistent friction characteristics throughout their operating range. If you plan on driving your car on a racetrack (or even a spirited mountain run), semi-metallic pads are the clear choice. But for casual city or highway driving, commuting, or chauffeuring the kids around town, ceramic or organic pads offer ample stopping power with the added benefits of quietness, cleaner wheels, and longer lifespan.
Braking is a compromise
Back to the question at hand — semi-metallic vs. ceramic brake pads. As said before, there is no single brake pad that can reign supreme in every single situation. If you want clean, quiet stops, you’ll pay for it in braking performance. If you want massive amounts of brake bite under extreme temperatures, you’ll be cleaning your wheels every few days. That’s just the way it works in the world of brakes. Ceramic pads offer quieter stops, cleaner wheels, and generally longer pad-life due to their harder composition. The downsides include less cold bite, rendering them less effective in cold weather or before the brakes are up to temperature. In addition, they typically have a lower coefficient of friction than their semi-metallic counterparts (the higher the coefficient of friction, the better a brake pad will stop your vehicle). Ceramic pads were never designed to be extreme performance or racing brake pads. The ceramic material is also a less effective heat sink than their metallic equivalents — instead, they act almost like an insulator. The less heat the pad is able to absorb, the more the heat is retained in the brake rotor and surrounding components, which can lead to increased temperatures of the entire brake system.On the other hand, while semi-metallic pads do produce more noise and dust, they’re arguably the more versatile of the two. They are more effective over a wider range of temperatures and have a much higher thermal threshold. They provide better cold bite than ceramic pads and maintain much more consistent friction characteristics throughout their operating range. If you plan on driving your car on a racetrack (or even a spirited mountain run), semi-metallic pads are the clear choice. But for casual city or highway driving, commuting, or chauffeuring the kids around town, ceramic or organic pads offer ample stopping power with the added benefits of quietness, cleaner wheels, and longer lifespan.
#27
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The number of pistons in a caliper is only part of the bigger picture for an overall design and one should not assume more pistons necessarily=shorter stopping distances or better braking. Having more pistons is generally to distribute clamping force over the area of a physically longer pad. Cars with larger pads tend to have more pistons as it's physically not possible to get a single large piston to cover the area as well. Some serious high performance cars use single piston. All depends on how the engineers set it up.
The main components to how well a car stops is friction between the pad and rotor, how fast (in milliseconds) that friction can be achieved repetitively (ABS), and the same for the tire to road interface. Basically how much tire is on the ground and how well it can hold the road. How well a car can do this back to back to back to back is another story. I wouldn't necessarily zero in on number of pistons. Not what you have but how you use it sort of thing.
Also if you want to compare pads, you'd have to do so on the same vehicles w/ same tires. For example a Porsche will probably stop faster on all seasons than a camry will on track tires.
Not knocking you on your decision to get ceramics. I'm more knocking you for suggesting there's no performance price to be paid using them. I'm sure you like them and they work well for your use. For performance minded drivers though, ceramics is a compromise. It offers "almost as good" initial friction, not as good heat resistance/fade resistance, but offers low dust and is more expensive. That sums up ceramics, regardless of whether or not the word "performance" is added to the sales literature.
The main components to how well a car stops is friction between the pad and rotor, how fast (in milliseconds) that friction can be achieved repetitively (ABS), and the same for the tire to road interface. Basically how much tire is on the ground and how well it can hold the road. How well a car can do this back to back to back to back is another story. I wouldn't necessarily zero in on number of pistons. Not what you have but how you use it sort of thing.
Also if you want to compare pads, you'd have to do so on the same vehicles w/ same tires. For example a Porsche will probably stop faster on all seasons than a camry will on track tires.
Not knocking you on your decision to get ceramics. I'm more knocking you for suggesting there's no performance price to be paid using them. I'm sure you like them and they work well for your use. For performance minded drivers though, ceramics is a compromise. It offers "almost as good" initial friction, not as good heat resistance/fade resistance, but offers low dust and is more expensive. That sums up ceramics, regardless of whether or not the word "performance" is added to the sales literature.
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#28
Lexus Test Driver
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Ceramic brakes are the all season tires of the brake world.
I'm just a performance minded driver. Summer tires/high performance pads.
I'm just a performance minded driver. Summer tires/high performance pads.
#29
Lexus Test Driver
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Clear bras do yellow. Crap I'm seeing a friend in two days where his clear bra is yellowed on his car and we're planning on removing it. ONly after a few years. That's like saying hyundai warranties its car for 10 years therfore stuff won't break. that's just to get you to buy it. They'll still make money even if they replace it.
If you know my reputation on other forums, you'll know it's as high as it goes. i'm also on wiki and a bunch of other stuff. to give you an idea. don't worry i won't lead you wrong =) I know part choice/brand can get personal and people get mad when you say their product can't do X.
It's just fact that brake materials, as with most things, is a compromise. you cannot have your cake and eat it too. (as the article I posted says too) good luck!
If you know my reputation on other forums, you'll know it's as high as it goes. i'm also on wiki and a bunch of other stuff. to give you an idea. don't worry i won't lead you wrong =) I know part choice/brand can get personal and people get mad when you say their product can't do X.
It's just fact that brake materials, as with most things, is a compromise. you cannot have your cake and eat it too. (as the article I posted says too) good luck!
#30
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Last edited by Flash5; 07-05-18 at 03:47 PM.