Burrcold

E46CT

I see. But still you live in Toronto where it's cold and everyone is on a/s tires. Maybe I use my cars differently than you might and that's fair. You can get by with friendly brake pads. People do every day. I'm just talking under heavy use/high performance.

There's still a tradeoff with your pads. They may be some kind of blend where they add other stuff in it for "performance" but by definition if the pad isn't shedding itself (dust) then the friction level is lower. Good pads aren't friendly to ears, your wheels, or your rotors.

My point in mentioning performance vehicles (the BMWs i speak of are not necessarily all ///Ms.) I've owned 7 BMWs, 5 of them non ///Ms, all with extremely high brake dust but very high performing brakes. Just saying it's the nature of the beast.

We had these same arguments in the BMW world. 3 series guys using akebono pads cause they didn't like the dust then complained about stopping power (usually cold bite). In one instance, one guy even got into an accident when a car pulled out in front of him. I think Mercedes did a test on this too showing the dangers of aftermarket "friendly" pads. 1-3 cars longer stopping distance. Anyway,

We can agree to disagree but I'm telling you from canyon and track experience, the better brakes make a lot of noise and a lot of dust. just the way it is and that's why Lexus equipped what they did for the F Sport. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Burrcold

Flash5

Flash5

wforty94

I actually really like the aggressive bite of the factory F-Sport pads but couldn't take the crazy amount of brake dust. Let us know how the new Akebonos work out for you. I didn't like the ceramic version at all

Flash5

wforty94

Yes sir. I ended switching them out with HAWK HPS, which I really like, though they do not have the initial bite the factory F-Sport pad has. They bite and modulate better than the factory pads as you depress the brake pedal but the initial bite isn't as good as the stock pads. Better than the ACT's though so I am curious to see how the ASP's work out.

Flash5

E46CT

The number of pistons in a caliper is only part of the bigger picture for an overall design and one should not assume more pistons necessarily=shorter stopping distances or better braking. Having more pistons is generally to distribute clamping force over the area of a physically longer pad. Cars with larger pads tend to have more pistons as it's physically not possible to get a single large piston to cover the area as well. Some serious high performance cars use single piston. All depends on how the engineers set it up.

The main components to how well a car stops is friction between the pad and rotor, how fast (in milliseconds) that friction can be achieved repetitively (ABS), and the same for the tire to road interface. Basically how much tire is on the ground and how well it can hold the road. How well a car can do this back to back to back to back is another story. I wouldn't necessarily zero in on number of pistons. Not what you have but how you use it sort of thing.

Also if you want to compare pads, you'd have to do so on the same vehicles w/ same tires. For example a Porsche will probably stop faster on all seasons than a camry will on track tires.

Not knocking you on your decision to get ceramics. I'm more knocking you for suggesting there's no performance price to be paid using them. I'm sure you like them and they work well for your use. For performance minded drivers though, ceramics is a compromise. It offers "almost as good" initial friction, not as good heat resistance/fade resistance, but offers low dust and is more expensive. That sums up ceramics, regardless of whether or not the word "performance" is added to the sales literature.

E46CT

Here is a from a technical website. Copy/paste, say it better than I could:

Braking is a compromise

Back to the question at hand — semi-metallic vs. ceramic brake pads. As said before, there is no single brake pad that can reign supreme in every single situation. If you want clean, quiet stops, you’ll pay for it in braking performance. If you want massive amounts of brake bite under extreme temperatures, you’ll be cleaning your wheels every few days. That’s just the way it works in the world of brakes. Ceramic pads offer quieter stops, cleaner wheels, and generally longer pad-life due to their harder composition. The downsides include less cold bite, rendering them less effective in cold weather or before the brakes are up to temperature. In addition, they typically have a lower coefficient of friction than their semi-metallic counterparts (the higher the coefficient of friction, the better a brake pad will stop your vehicle). Ceramic pads were never designed to be extreme performance or racing brake pads. The ceramic material is also a less effective heat sink than their metallic equivalents — instead, they act almost like an insulator. The less heat the pad is able to absorb, the more the heat is retained in the brake rotor and surrounding components, which can lead to increased temperatures of the entire brake system.

On the other hand, while semi-metallic pads do produce more noise and dust, they’re arguably the more versatile of the two. They are more effective over a wider range of temperatures and have a much higher thermal threshold. They provide better cold bite than ceramic pads and maintain much more consistent friction characteristics throughout their operating range. If you plan on driving your car on a racetrack (or even a spirited mountain run), semi-metallic pads are the clear choice. But for casual city or highway driving, commuting, or chauffeuring the kids around town, ceramic or organic pads offer ample stopping power with the added benefits of quietness, cleaner wheels, and longer lifespan.

Flash5

If you look at my post, you'll see that I said there is ALMOST no difference. The reason I said that and I also said it on some other threads is because probably 90% of people with an IS don't track the car nor use the brakes in a way that brake fade matters. Going ceramic sure you won't get the intial bite and the brake fade is worse than what the oem pads give you, but to suggest that you'll feel a significant difference in normal daily driving is not true. Also, there is no way single piston caliper will operate as well as a 4 piston or higher caliper. I am not saying that everything you've been saying is incorrect, but you're saying some things that are exaggerated and partly untrue; the same way you stated in another thread that PPF yellows in a few years which isn't the case as pretty much every manufacturer warranties it for 10 years against that (previous generations of PPF did yellow quickly since it didn't have a UV protection layer). I think I'll just agree to disagree at this point about ceramic brake pads haha.

E46CT

Ceramic brakes are the all season tires of the brake world.

I'm just a performance minded driver. Summer tires/high performance pads.

E46CT

Clear bras do yellow. Crap I'm seeing a friend in two days where his clear bra is yellowed on his car and we're planning on removing it. ONly after a few years. That's like saying hyundai warranties its car for 10 years therfore stuff won't break. that's just to get you to buy it. They'll still make money even if they replace it.

If you know my reputation on other forums, you'll know it's as high as it goes. i'm also on wiki and a bunch of other stuff. to give you an idea. don't worry i won't lead you wrong =) I know part choice/brand can get personal and people get mad when you say their product can't do X.

It's just fact that brake materials, as with most things, is a compromise. you cannot have your cake and eat it too. (as the article I posted says too) good luck!

Flash5

I just don't find the 3IS performance minded and that's fine with me as I did not buy it for that. That is why I like to emphasize convenience over performance when it comes to this car. And that must have been a cheap PPF your friend got installed haha. Lastly, like I've told everyone before it's all about personal preference and I won't ever criticize the decisions people make regarding their own car. Also, of course warranties don't guarantee that it will last that long, but a good brand will always get close to it. I am not saying you do not know anything, but I feel some of your information is outdated.