TRD Sportivo Sways
10-12-03, 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by RON430
You never know. Might give them a try but I really prefer the rubber bushings that the TRDs come with for a street car, especially a Lexus.
You never know. Might give them a try but I really prefer the rubber bushings that the TRDs come with for a street car, especially a Lexus.
I dont think you can tell if you were driving it what the material was?????????
10-12-03, 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by RON430
I get blamed for lengthy posts so let's see if I can do this briefly and get the point across. In the good ol' early days of trans am we had pretty awful chassis as far as stiffness was concerned and a pretty limited set of rules that prevented full tube chassis so we had to work around what the factories gave us. We pretty quickly found out on the Camaros that you really couldn't get the stabilizer bars too stiff, generally with pretty stiff springs too. As we learned more, we started looking at other things and found that the stiffer we went, the less the suspension worked (the ultimate in roll stiffness is just welding the axles in place but I wouldn't recommend it). We started to soften things up a bit and give various suspension components a chance to work, and went faster. I still like to reduce roll stiffness quite a bit (old habits die hard) but, above all, I prefer a balanced suspension - much like what bimmer has built its deserved reputation around. Here is a pretty simple question - can you make a stabilizer bar too stiff? The answer is yes, you can. If you look at what a stabilizer bar does, it transfers suspension movement from one side of the car to the other. This has the effect of reducing the independence of the suspension on each side as the coupling between the two sides has increased. I prefer to keep an independent suspension, thank you, for some other reasons. Are there any good things about body roll? This is a bit more circuitous but the entire suspension from the tires to the driver have to work together, at least for highest speed handling. Winding up in the weeds is somewhat undesirable. When the car gets up to its limits of adhesion, it is pretty nice for the driver to know it. Generally, increasing handling limits will wind up with the situation that if and when the car does break loose, it will be doing it at a speed where things will happen very quickly (one of the bigger reasons why people who raced on bias ply tires like me had a devil of a time transitioning to radial race tires - the bias ply had a lot of defficiencies relative to the radials but they were a lot more progressive in their feel, especially at the handling limits). Some body roll isn't a bad thing and I haven't been in any bimmers, porsches, vettes, etc., that don't have some body roll. In fact, the europeans tend to underdamp which gives higher initial body roll but the car will take a "set" and not move much from there.
My wife's GS3 with the bilstein HDs and the Sportivo sways definitely has a firm ride, actually wouldn't mind softening it a bit, but as for handling, it just has a wonderful balance, better than bimmers in my opinion, and better than the GS430. I am really still in disbelief that there is this much difference between the GS3 and the GS430 but I can compare rides instantly and my buttometer certifies that the GS3 is a much different animal. The GS430 may do better with the TRD blues but having slightly more money than sense, although that doesn't make me that unique on this board, I have another set of TRD Sportivos and I will try them on the GS430 when I get the time and see how they do.
I get blamed for lengthy posts so let's see if I can do this briefly and get the point across. In the good ol' early days of trans am we had pretty awful chassis as far as stiffness was concerned and a pretty limited set of rules that prevented full tube chassis so we had to work around what the factories gave us. We pretty quickly found out on the Camaros that you really couldn't get the stabilizer bars too stiff, generally with pretty stiff springs too. As we learned more, we started looking at other things and found that the stiffer we went, the less the suspension worked (the ultimate in roll stiffness is just welding the axles in place but I wouldn't recommend it). We started to soften things up a bit and give various suspension components a chance to work, and went faster. I still like to reduce roll stiffness quite a bit (old habits die hard) but, above all, I prefer a balanced suspension - much like what bimmer has built its deserved reputation around. Here is a pretty simple question - can you make a stabilizer bar too stiff? The answer is yes, you can. If you look at what a stabilizer bar does, it transfers suspension movement from one side of the car to the other. This has the effect of reducing the independence of the suspension on each side as the coupling between the two sides has increased. I prefer to keep an independent suspension, thank you, for some other reasons. Are there any good things about body roll? This is a bit more circuitous but the entire suspension from the tires to the driver have to work together, at least for highest speed handling. Winding up in the weeds is somewhat undesirable. When the car gets up to its limits of adhesion, it is pretty nice for the driver to know it. Generally, increasing handling limits will wind up with the situation that if and when the car does break loose, it will be doing it at a speed where things will happen very quickly (one of the bigger reasons why people who raced on bias ply tires like me had a devil of a time transitioning to radial race tires - the bias ply had a lot of defficiencies relative to the radials but they were a lot more progressive in their feel, especially at the handling limits). Some body roll isn't a bad thing and I haven't been in any bimmers, porsches, vettes, etc., that don't have some body roll. In fact, the europeans tend to underdamp which gives higher initial body roll but the car will take a "set" and not move much from there.
My wife's GS3 with the bilstein HDs and the Sportivo sways definitely has a firm ride, actually wouldn't mind softening it a bit, but as for handling, it just has a wonderful balance, better than bimmers in my opinion, and better than the GS430. I am really still in disbelief that there is this much difference between the GS3 and the GS430 but I can compare rides instantly and my buttometer certifies that the GS3 is a much different animal. The GS430 may do better with the TRD blues but having slightly more money than sense, although that doesn't make me that unique on this board, I have another set of TRD Sportivos and I will try them on the GS430 when I get the time and see how they do.
i read an old post and you said the bilstenes are perfect, now usay they arent, whats the deal
koreanpers i think the daizens might be the way to gofor you less confuzion!!!!!
10-13-03, 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
How does the material make something work differently?????????
I dont think you can tell if you were driving it what the material was?????????
How does the material make something work differently?????????
I dont think you can tell if you were driving it what the material was?????????
10-13-03, 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
I think a GS is not made the sameas a 50's jalopy!!!! How can these compare????????????
i read an old post and you said the bilstenes are perfect, now usay they arent, whats the deal
koreanpers i think the daizens might be the way to gofor you less confuzion!!!!!
I think a GS is not made the sameas a 50's jalopy!!!! How can these compare????????????
i read an old post and you said the bilstenes are perfect, now usay they arent, whats the deal
koreanpers i think the daizens might be the way to gofor you less confuzion!!!!!
Reread those old posts again and pull out what I said and about what bilstein shock for which application and let me know where you imagine I have changed my mind. What is it about the Daizens that you think are ideal for me? I really would like to know. I don't find any particular suspension setup to be ideal because there are too many roads out there and too many driving conditions, balance is far more important than ultimate cornering g's on a street car, racing is a lot different. So I look for what suits me and my driving style and I don't really care if anyone else would care for it. Unfortunately, I also like to keep trying new things to see if there is any improvement out there. If I do try the Sportivos on the GS4 I will probably also end up doing a little mix and match. But for my wife's GS3, I think the HDs and the Sportivo bars are a great package that is going to be quiet and not require any maintenance for the life of the car which I cannot say for solid bushings. I believe it is also very safe and suits her driving style. For my current setup, with my tires and springs, I also believe the sports are a great shock for the GS4 and I am not exactly rushing to replace the TRD blues. But, if I change other things, this may not stay the same which is why I always try to post what are the major components I have on the car. We have very, very little apples to apples modding going on here so it is not easy to figure out what to do on your car unless you are just looking for what is the newest component out there, and there is very likely more than one person here that values having the latest strut, bar, brace, spring, or shock rather than saying they are looking for some specific improvement in a specific area. Please don't feel that I am saying that anyone is crazy for getting the Daizen sways. But then I don't think anyone is crazy for getting either the TRD blues or the TRD Sportivos either. Pay your money and get what you want. And if you want to go fast in the corners, you will spend a lot less money and go a lot quicker with things that don't have four doors. Please try to keep in mind that we are talking about Lexus's here.
10-13-03, 11:20 AM
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Well I don't know anyone who has changed from daizen to trd but it seems like the other way around is what the concencus is
they have daizens with rubber bushings maybe you should try those but since the brand is not your brand maybe you wouldn't like them
they have daizens with rubber bushings maybe you should try those but since the brand is not your brand maybe you wouldn't like them
10-13-03, 12:46 PM
#21
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Cr...SC. I think what Ron is doing is just comparing the differences between the TRD bars that he HAS!! I dont for one minute think that his findings are based on liking one company over another. If he had a set of Daizens I think he would post his findings without bias.
I am still on the fence with these bars and having some input helps to make an educated decision. That is not to say that I may put sportivos and hate them but it gives a good reference point to go from.
Just my 2 cents....
I am still on the fence with these bars and having some input helps to make an educated decision. That is not to say that I may put sportivos and hate them but it gives a good reference point to go from.
Just my 2 cents....
10-13-03, 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
Well I don't know anyone who has changed from daizen to trd but it seems like the other way around is what the concencus is
they have daizens with rubber bushings maybe you should try those but since the brand is not your brand maybe you wouldn't like them
Well I don't know anyone who has changed from daizen to trd but it seems like the other way around is what the concencus is
they have daizens with rubber bushings maybe you should try those but since the brand is not your brand maybe you wouldn't like them
I have a preferred brand of shock absorber (although I was pretty surprised by the difference between HDs and sports on the GS3) but a preferred brand of stabilizer bar? You have to be kidding. Really, the point is that there are at least four choices of stabilizer bar for the GS. Stock, TRD Sportivo, Daizen, and TRD Race Blue. The reason there are four is because the market prefers choice. We have had a lot posted on the stockers (pretty uniform disgust), Daizen, and the TRD Race blues. But there has been very little posted about the TRD Sportivos. I think choice is a good thing but if you have a preferred brand of suspension components, by all means, please vote with your checkbook. When I bought the GS, I had no delusions that I didn't like the handling. But I felt that it could be significantly improved for a relatively minor amount of dollars which, at least for my tastes, I have done.
When I tried the sports on the GS and got an awful ride, I backed off to the HDs. I was really perplexed by the harsh ride (doubly so because it is my wife's car) but I felt (and she did too) that it still needed some improvement in roll stiffness. So I put on the Sportivo's and have been very happy with them. Once again, they are so good that I intend to try them on the GS4 as well. And maybe everybody with TRD blues won't like the results of that either but I will at least post it, when I get around to it, and give my impressions. And the results I get, will be from my buttometer with the rest of the suspension components I have and that may not apply to anybody else.
From the Daizen web site:
"Custom high durometer polyurethane sway bar bushings are included with each set, which provide maximum deflection resistance and allow the sway bars to operate at peak efficiency. Unlike factory rubber bushings, these bushings are not susceptible to cracking or deterioration over time, even with extended periods of hard driving or harsh environments. "
Maybe you could point me to the Daizen site that offers Daizen bars with rubber bushings.
Last edited by RON430; 10-13-03 at 01:10 PM.
10-13-03, 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by Letsride
Cr...SC. I think what Ron is doing is just comparing the differences between the TRD bars that he HAS!! I dont for one minute think that his findings are based on liking one company over another. If he had a set of Daizens I think he would post his findings without bias.
I am still on the fence with these bars and having some input helps to make an educated decision. That is not to say that I may put sportivos and hate them but it gives a good reference point to go from.
Just my 2 cents....
Cr...SC. I think what Ron is doing is just comparing the differences between the TRD bars that he HAS!! I dont for one minute think that his findings are based on liking one company over another. If he had a set of Daizens I think he would post his findings without bias.
I am still on the fence with these bars and having some input helps to make an educated decision. That is not to say that I may put sportivos and hate them but it gives a good reference point to go from.
Just my 2 cents....
plus he doesnt like the daizen cuz they dont hvae rubber bushings but nobody on this earth can tell the difference especially on a 50's or 60s jalopy
10-13-03, 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by RON430
When I tried the sports on the GS and got an awful ride, I backed off to the HDs. I was really perplexed by the harsh ride (doubly so because it is my wife's car) but I felt (and she did too) that it still needed some improvement in roll stiffness. So I put on the Sportivo's and have been very happy with them. Once again, they are so good that I intend to try them on the GS4 as well. And maybe everybody with TRD blues won't like the results of that either but I will at least post it, when I get around to it, and give my impressions. And the results I get, will be from my buttometer with the rest of the suspension components I have and that may not apply to anybody else.
When I tried the sports on the GS and got an awful ride, I backed off to the HDs. I was really perplexed by the harsh ride (doubly so because it is my wife's car) but I felt (and she did too) that it still needed some improvement in roll stiffness. So I put on the Sportivo's and have been very happy with them. Once again, they are so good that I intend to try them on the GS4 as well. And maybe everybody with TRD blues won't like the results of that either but I will at least post it, when I get around to it, and give my impressions. And the results I get, will be from my buttometer with the rest of the suspension components I have and that may not apply to anybody else.
I just dont get why you have to refer to 60's jalopys when you talk about a lexus they are not the same thing!! my grandfather talksabout the past endlessly too
10-13-03, 04:43 PM
#25
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
yes exactly, he hasnt tried them but a littlewhile ago he said that anything less than the trd blue werent that good and now there is a new trd that is softer but its ok but at that time the daizen werent ok. this is why i am confused and it doesnt make any sense
plus he doesnt like the daizen cuz they dont hvae rubber bushings but nobody on this earth can tell the difference especially on a 50's or 60s jalopy
yes exactly, he hasnt tried them but a littlewhile ago he said that anything less than the trd blue werent that good and now there is a new trd that is softer but its ok but at that time the daizen werent ok. this is why i am confused and it doesnt make any sense
plus he doesnt like the daizen cuz they dont hvae rubber bushings but nobody on this earth can tell the difference especially on a 50's or 60s jalopy
Last edited by Letsride; 10-14-03 at 04:51 AM.
10-13-03, 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
before you said bislteins are the best valved and made shock but now they have an awful ride but your suprised, wow what a suprise that its not a dream brand!
I just dont get why you have to refer to 60's jalopys when you talk about a lexus they are not the same thing!! my grandfather talksabout the past endlessly too
before you said bislteins are the best valved and made shock but now they have an awful ride but your suprised, wow what a suprise that its not a dream brand!
I just dont get why you have to refer to 60's jalopys when you talk about a lexus they are not the same thing!! my grandfather talksabout the past endlessly too
My condolences to your grandfather. It's pretty obvious you could look at a Lotus all day long and never see anything other than a "jalopy". It also appears that you wouldn't learn any more looking at a Lexus suspension either. What a rich life you have with such an appreciation of the past. But thanks for letting me know that a Lexus has nothing in common with any car more than ten years old. I didn't know that.
Ever find that link to the Daizen's with the rubber bushings?
10-13-03, 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by CrazeeSC
yes exactly, he hasnt tried them but a littlewhile ago he said that anything less than the trd blue werent that good and now there is a new trd that is softer but its ok but at that time the daizen werent ok. this is why i am confused and it doesnt make any sense
plus he doesnt like the daizen cuz they dont hvae rubber bushings but nobody on this earth can tell the difference especially on a 50's or 60s jalopy
yes exactly, he hasnt tried them but a littlewhile ago he said that anything less than the trd blue werent that good and now there is a new trd that is softer but its ok but at that time the daizen werent ok. this is why i am confused and it doesnt make any sense
plus he doesnt like the daizen cuz they dont hvae rubber bushings but nobody on this earth can tell the difference especially on a 50's or 60s jalopy
Last edited by RON430; 10-13-03 at 05:07 PM.
10-14-03, 11:58 AM
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Wonderful. You know, upon reflection last night, I realized that you really are quite amusing. Thirty one years ago I had just returned from Germany where we had made input to the factory on the cars we were building for the 73 Can Am and the last word I would apply to them was jalopy.
And for an even bigger laugh you post either fallacious posts (ever find that link to the Daizen components with the rubber bushings) or distortions of another members previous posts or posts that have nothing to do with the thread (maybe you should check out the title I gave this thread) and then you very sanctimoniously recommend that the moderators defend your statements. Well, maybe they will, that is their call, but you might want to get not only something to add to these threads but a thicker skin if you intend to make such uninformed comments about automotive technology and posters backgrounds. Then again, seeing as how Daizen appears to be your preferred suspension component brand, I guess you are representative of their prospective target market.
Seeing as how no one is particularly interested in Sportivo stabilizer bars, I guess we can skip any further input.
And for an even bigger laugh you post either fallacious posts (ever find that link to the Daizen components with the rubber bushings) or distortions of another members previous posts or posts that have nothing to do with the thread (maybe you should check out the title I gave this thread) and then you very sanctimoniously recommend that the moderators defend your statements. Well, maybe they will, that is their call, but you might want to get not only something to add to these threads but a thicker skin if you intend to make such uninformed comments about automotive technology and posters backgrounds. Then again, seeing as how Daizen appears to be your preferred suspension component brand, I guess you are representative of their prospective target market.
Seeing as how no one is particularly interested in Sportivo stabilizer bars, I guess we can skip any further input.
10-14-03, 12:04 PM
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RON430,
Can you please keep us posted about your impressions of the Sportivo stabilizer bars on GS430? That is of course if you decide to install them. I'm very interested in your opinion about them.
Thanks.
Can you please keep us posted about your impressions of the Sportivo stabilizer bars on GS430? That is of course if you decide to install them. I'm very interested in your opinion about them.
Thanks.
Last edited by ChrisK; 10-14-03 at 12:05 PM.