Manaray

John - I'd be very suprised if you could get a better price than what Mo offers...I got a price from him and I had my buddy call up for a 'dealer' price and Mo was practially giving the wheels away! Afterall, he does do special deals for Club Lexus members...but if you do find someone willing to take a loss on the wheels, let us know!

808 State - The reason for my not approving Hamanns on a Lexus isn't due to the looks, it's due to principle...

Hamann is a well known BMW tuner...they don't make anything for Lexus cars nor do they care to. As a matter of fact, I bet the Hamann guys cringe when they see anything but a BMW or Ferrari with their wheels (I KNOW for a FACT that Brabus does! They will give you a hard time or close your account if they find out that your shop is putting their wheels on anything but Mercedes cars...)

So for me, if a company is that adamant about not having their products are particular vehicles (especially since they don't make a 5x114.3 pattern as far as I know), why do it? They don't WANT you as a customer so why sport/support their products?

Now MAE (which is a Mercedes tuner) produces their wheels with a 5x114.3 setup so doing their wheels is "OK" (I suppose) but I still wouldn't do it personally. If I wanted the "look" of a Mercedes, I would have bought one.

And while your comment about Japanese culture and whatnot is accurate (from what I know about it), I still don't think of Lexus cars as being euro copies. Inspired, maybe, but not copies....(and it looks like the Euro companies are starting to look at the Japanese for inspiration lately!)

The only Lexus that I think is close to Euro "copy" is the LS (which does have a striking resemblance to the Mercedes S-Class)...but the GS, SC, and IS are very much Japanese IMO...

But in the end, it's your car and your money and you can do as your wish. I wish all the euro tuners would take on Lexus cars...but until they do, I won't support them on my Japanese car...

808state

manaray-

i think the very reason why people customize their car is so that their car becomes unique, different, or stands out from the other car. when someone tells you shouldn't do that because of this or that without any logical backing, doesn't that make you want to go out and prove them wrong? people who go against the trend, they get noticed!

take for instance the latest issue of hot compact and imports (october 2001). when adrian puente went to a porsche dealer because he wanted to put 18" porsche rims on his jetta/bora, the dealer said "Porsche wheels on a VW? Son, that's just not right." you would think german car, german wheels... but these old geezers couldn't think out of the box because of their so called "principles." puente proved them wrong and got them anyway (money talks, b.s. walks..) which now graces pages 52, 54, 55, and 2 paragraphs in hci mag.

back in the days when we were modifying our toys(toyota), we didn't have the vast amount of choices and manufacturers to choose from as we do now. there was only trd and hks and you were lucky if they made stuff for your 70's or 80's toy. we had to improvise and put american aftermarket parts in japanse cars. we also put on american racing, centerlines, momo, fittis, whatever we thought looked fly and worked. we didn't care who made it as long as it was quality stuff, looked good, and performed well.

if you think lexus cars aren't influenced/copied from europeans, then i seriously think you should think again. whenever japanese people come to hawaii, what do you think they buy? they buy gucci, prada and any other upscale european brands you can think of. when they eat out do you think they eat hamburgers? think again, they eat italian food. now with this in mind, when a japanese car manufacturer wants to break into the euro market, where do you think they send their top car designer to learn about it? they send them to europe... the same place where the renaissance took place. you can attribute the new nissan designs from an automotive designer trained in europe. you can also attribute akihiro nagaya's 1993 gs300 design from a 1990 giorgetto giugiaro (try saying that 5 times fast) designed jaguar kensington show car(automtive magazine, 1997). hell, the first sc430 car commercial i saw featured a dog, a supermodel, and someone speaking in french!

also, why do you think acura and lexus change the names of their cars when they sell it in the us market? to make their cars seem more european/luxury! the european cars have names like 330i, m3, tt, 850csi, a6, a4, clk. lexus has sc400, sc430, is300. acura changed their line names from the legend to 2.2cl, tl. to make japanese cars seem more euro/lexu, they don't keep the original names like soarer, altezza, aristo. they change it to match european cars designations. now japanese maufacturers aren't gonna copy everything (infringements, copyrights, etc..), but they will come close then make it their own.

the one thing i agree with you is that yes, american and european manufactuers are ripping off japanese (from what i can tell) creations. i see altezza lights on american cars now and hell, the new ford focus svt looks like an older civic hatchback!

anyway, this is turning out to be lengthy discussion..wheww. we all have difference of views, but the main thing is that it should be that way!

808state

by the way... how do you write lexus in japanese???

you can write toyota, honda, mitsubishi in hiragana,katakana, and kanji, but i don't think lexus was a japanese derived word. must be latin/european or something. ano, chotto nihongo ga wakarimasu. kedo, anta wa ookii chimpo! :eek:

jaa mata!

Lexus_IS300

i do agree with you 808. but if you look back to the days of datsun.. 510s...they were dominating bmw...and after awhile...you see bmw pop up with the same style (round) headlights as the datsuns

Manaray

808 State - Off topic but did you pick that handle based on the musical group?

While I agree with you on some items, I don't think it's about thinking "outside of the box". It's not there isn't alternative nowadays...there are.

And people who go against the trend do get noticed but is that always a good thing? Just having a hooked up Lexus is already going against the trend. Painting your Lexus hot pink and putting on 22" chrome ugly Lexanis is also going against the "trend" also but does that make it good?

As for Porsche wheels on a VW, that's OLD news and that's HARDLY thinking "outside of the box". People used to put Porsche alloys on VW bugs all the time! Putting a Japanese body kit and wheels on a Mercedes (as opposed to the tried and true Brabus, Lorinser, Carlsson kits) is thinking "outside of the box". (and by that I mean kits/wheels that are made for Mercedes like AutoCouture, Wald, etc.)

As for back in the days...well back then, you didn't have much of a choice so you HAD to adapt parts. Today, you don't need to do that....you know, back in the days, when tapes were the only form of storage on my computer, I bought a little kit that adapted a IBM 5.25" floppy drive...but I didn't have much choice if I wanted quick storage back then...now a days, there's no need to "jimmy" a storage device to any modern computer...there are SOLUTIONS already out there...(thank God! Man, tapes SUCKED!)

I know that many high end Japanese cars are INFLUENCED by European design, but they're not all COPIES...BIG DIFFERENCE...and the 1993 GS300 was Giugiaro's design, not Nagaya's....Nagaya used Giugiaro's design as the BASIS for the new JSZ16x Aristos (our 98+ GS's) which Toyota rightfully ownes (as they bought the Giugiaro design)...not a huge surprise considering that the original GS's shape was nice (no need to do a massive change of the basic shape). The difference here is that Giugiaro actually DID the design as opposed to Nagaya just COPYING Giugiaro's design...nothing wrong with sourcing designers from other places...if you don't believe me, check out www.italdesign.com. If you go to PRODUCTION cars, you'll see that the GS300 is listed...and I've attached a picture of both cars...similar, but then again, they're BOTH Giugiaro's design so there's no surprise there. Besides that, Jaguar didn't buy Giugiaro's design...

As for names, Lexus UNDERSTANDS the American market. Americans NEED the have a different label for a high end brand vs. a low end brand......Same thing with the naming. Names like Aristo, Soarer, Altezza, etc. wouldn't work out that well with American buyers (except for people like us!). Also, Lexus has always used the Body style then Engine designation...did you notice that MERCEDES started doing that AFTER Lexus? The 1990 S-Class was the 500SEL (etc...)....so who copied who? And what about RX-3? RX-7? etc., etc...? Japanese didn't JUST start using Letter/Number designations...

Also, notice that Toyota STILL used names (as does most everyone else who sells in the "non-luxury" market)...but Mercedes and BMW sell ALL their cars with similar designations...if Toyota/Lexus was COPYING them, they would have done the same thing and renamed their entire line...but they did what they did to DIFFERENTIATE the lines...they didn't want people to associate Lexus cars with Toyota cars (but they should have seperated the Camry and the ES a LOT more in terms of design)...again, they understand the American psyche...which is why BMW and Mercedes don't sell their $10,000 car here...

The bottom line, IMO, is that I don't believe that we, as Lexus owners, should support companies that don't believe (and therefore don't make) products for our car. Hartge ONLY makes BMW stuff, Carlsson ONLY makes Mercedes stuff, Hamann ONLY makes BMW and Ferrari stuff...it's not like they're the ONLY ones making wheels and body kits!

I wouldn't put a Rolex Jubilee (yuk!) bracelet on a IWC watch...I wouldn't put a Mac motherboard in a Dell case (ok, maybe just to be funny)...I wouldn't try to jimmy a HK USP slide onto a Glock...I wouldn't use concrete filled PVC pipes to make a strut tower bar (but hey, it's different!)

Does that mean I'm not thinking outside the box? HARDLY. It just means that I wouldn't do it that way...because I WOULD buy Rolex with a licensed IWC movement (well, I wouldn't buy a Rolex but you know what I mean...also, the Rolex Daytona, until recently, contained a Rolex modified/de-featured Zenith movement)...I would buy a Mac in a generic PC looking case, I would (did!) buy a Glock that has the "accessory" rails of the HK USP...

Also...putting VW wheels on a Porsche (by your definition) is thinking outside the box but would you do that? In my opinion, thinking outside the box would be putting some nice HRE's or Fikse's in 19" with black centers on a black Porsche GT2...won't see too many of those rolling around...definitely different but in a GOOD way.

You should be different for a REASON....not JUST for the sake of being different...

As for your last statement, yes, I agree!

Oh yeah, the Jag concept car looks like a BMW and a Maserati more than the GS...

Manaray

Oh yeah, hey 808, can you read Japanese? I have a LOT of things I need translating!

Bruce

For those that are still undecided I've posted some Japanese wheels for sale in the GS classified section.

808state

manaray-

although 808state was a great one hit wonder (from what i can tell) techno/rave/trance/whatever the hell they call this kind of music (though it's all the same to me)... think more along the lines of a popular song from rush hour 2 besides, techno rave (whatevers) basically is "copying/influenced" by kraftwork, DEPECHE MODE, NIN, nitzer ebb, new order, you name it (but that's for another discussion not...not in here).

anyway, i guess you are proving MY point when you wrote:

when i already said BEFORE that:
also, if you said toyota bought the rights to a "european" design (nice to know ), then doesn't that just further what i said BEFORE about:
and what i said BEFORE about:
maybe i was wrong about copying, they just buy the whole damn design so they don't get sued when they "COPY" it. if they weren't COPYING, then why would they buy the rights? why not just make their own design? maybe (more fact though) because they want to seem european(i know i said this many of times, but one more won't hurt )

anyway, maybe i used the wrong term/word when i said "think out of the box." it should have been "to damn snobby, crusty, old geezer!" to think you can't put porsche rims on a passat. but then again, i did say:



you also say:
i DON'T CARE if by buying Hamann, i support a EUROPEAN aftermarket product (as long as it isn't a front for terrorist money financing..lets go kick some bin ladean butt). you can't honestly tell me japanese aftermarket producers are actually supporting LEXUS cars?!?! can you please tell me where to buy a:
1) strut tower bar that CORRECTLY fits a sc400 made by a japanese manufacturer and doesn't have to be custom made.
2) a supercharger that doesn't cost over 7k not including installation on a sc400 with an obdii computer.
3) a semiautomatic adapter for the sc400 (like the is, gs). i think the honda prelude has one for their automatic cars...
4) those connectors that will plug into a lexus electronics stereo so that all i have to do is connect the ends to an aftermarket stereo (what is that name of that thing anyway!).

and the list goes on...

now if we can modify existing equipment or make things work to meet our needs while still maintaining a quality fit and finish for a reasonable price, i believe all car owners would do this regardless of who makes the product (whether american, european, alaskan...). lets face it, if lexus wants us to modify a sc400, they would make parts (or at least trd usa would) for a sc400. an aftermarket companies in japan are gonna make aftermaket parts for j-spec vehicles and not us-spec vehicles. and if they do, they'll rape us price wise.

lets face it, we didn't buy a honda, toyota, or nissan so we aren't going to have much choices in aftermarket parts. so maybe we will have to "think outside the box" (did i use it correctly this time?) in order to modify our vehicle without actually spending more money than what our vehicle actually costed new! which could be a good thing because that means our cars will be similar and yet unique. unlike hondas or acuras which have a gazillion parts for them but they all look the same (you'd figure they'd be more different).

and yes, people should be different just to be different (with logical backing). then i wouldn't have to see so many damn skunks (you know, when racing stripes down the middle of your car was in on japanese cars), flashing blinkers, and ______(put your favorite "in thing now, stupid later" here).

btw, Lexus_IS300 (since this is your thread and sorry if manaray and myself have turned this into a lengthy off the subject discussion), is your final decision with hre? aren't those like 1k each? i think they're 3 piece custom rims, right? who makes them anyway since they're custom?

808state

manaray-

sorry, don't know that much japanese?!? though i do know some good one liners (haven't worked for me though ) oh yeah, what i meant by flashing blinkers (is this an oxymoron), you know, those blinkers that blink so fast that you want to tell them something is wrong with their blinkers?!?

Lexus_IS300

808 - i got blitz and im ordering the hre soon also. the HREs are made by HRE(?) and they are 3piece forged.

808state

Lexus_IS300-
was wondering where they were custom made (us, japan, switzerland?) and manufactured. that's what i meant by who makes them (sorry for the confusion). their webpage doesn't give much info (like the history behind the company,location, what their symbol represents, etc... maybe manaray or anyone else can help with the things that make you go hmmmm.....)

Manaray

HRE: HRE's are made here...dunno much about the logo...HRE's are very popular with Corvette and Viper owners (many Viper/Corvette tuners use HRE wheels exclusively on their "built" cars) like Fikse's are popular with Porsche owners and Kinesis is popular with Porsche and BMW guys...

808 - 808 State could be classified as one hit wonders I suppose...and I agree with you about what techno/rave was influenced from...but it all started in Belgium (well, that where most "experts" attribute the beginings of "techno")...Kraftwerks...ah, an old name...I still have some vinyl somewhere....

As for the rest...

Ok, you said that Nagaya 1993 GS300 design was attributed to Giugiaro's 1990 Jag showcar...what I was saying is that it WASN'T. Giugiaro DESIGNED the 1993 GS300, not Nagaya. Nagaya designed the NEW JZS-16x GS (300/400/430 body style)...

Toyota BOUGHT Giugiaro's design for the GS300, not the Jag, I don't consider that copying European cars. They HIRED a European designer to design a car for them. If I designed a car for Lexus, would it be considered copying an American car?

But I agree with you for the most part that Japanese are good at taking other designs and "refining/adapting" them...I guess your choice of the word "copy" is what was bugging me...to me, "copy" is what ADR/G-Racing/Zenetti/etc. type companies do with wheels...

As for Japanese companies supporting "Lexus", maybe I should have said "Toyota". They DO support "Toyota". The reason why it's hard to find particular parts for some Lexus cars is that they're not POPULAR (or exist) in Japan. They don't make "Performance" items for the SC300 SPECIFICALLY because most people in Japan that mod Soarers buy the 1JZ Turbo Soarers, not the 2JZ-GE NA versions...same thing with the 1UZ (SC400)...a factory built turbo (if we had it here) would probably be the choice for American Lexus tuners too...that doesn't mean they don't support "Lexus", it just means they don't support your particular VERSION of the Toyota counterpart specifically. Hamann doesn't support ANY Toyota in ANY way.

The other parts your asking for are parts that just aren't made...maybe there isn't a demand...or the research/build costs is just too high to justify...

There isn't a whole lot of supercharger options for European cars either...and the ones that are availabe aren't cheap either....

By SUPPORT, I mean make products that fit the car. Hamann's wheels are NOT made to fit Japanese cars (which is why you need to get them redrilled)...so why bother getting them when you can buy a 5 spoke wheel from Rays or Work or HRE?

That stereo plug thingy is called an adapter The reason why there aren't any readily available is because the manufacturer that makes the connectors for Lexus will NOT sell to anyone BUT Lexus...and to make a MOLD for that type of connector would cost a LOT (over $10,000K)...is that worth it for a $30 part that you'll only sell a handful of? I have two buddies that own stereo shops...do you know how many SC owners have come in asking for a done up system? None. Not a single person. A lot of GS and IS owners though...

I worked MANY years in the manfacturing world so not seeing some of the items you list is of no surprise to me. When you know how much it costs to make somthing as simple as a button, you'll understand why some products just aren't made. Just like Polyurathane body kits. The mold for these are VERY expensive and to recoup your cost is difficult (ESPECIALLY in a niche market like Lexus body kits...it's not honda body kits!)...that's why most high end kits are expensive. There are like 10000 screaming Honda modders for every 1 Luxury car modder. (Hehehe, don't quote me on that ratio...you know what I mean). It's hard to justify a company shelling out a lot of cash just to sell a few parts and not make any money. Lsportline is able to do it because they have Dazz as the parent company. If Microsoft was my parent company, I'd be able to offer you a full range of custom made parts for your SC400...

As for your "thinking outside of the box" comment (that is a very "motivational speaker" type of tagline!) about us buying Lexus cars instead of an Integra...well when it comes to wheels, having a Lexus car is not much different than owning any other 5-bolt Japanese car...most 5 bolt Japanese cars are 5x114.3...we have TONS of choice (EVERY Japanese wheel manufacturer makes wheels with 5x114.3!)...I have STACKS of Japanese magazines that have THOUSANDS of wheels to fit your Lexus...also Hamann DOES NOT MAKE 5x114.3 because they don't WANT their wheels on Japanese cars. If they did, they would make that bolt pattern! So why be so hard up to put those on a Lexus?

Another way to look at is this...would you put TRD wheels on a BMW? How about TTE (Toyota Team Europe) wheels on a BMW? How about NISMO (Nissan Motorsports) wheels on a BMW? Of course not...well putting Hamann wheels on a Lexus is the same thing!

If you like the "STYLE" of their (Hamann or otherwise) wheels, there are Japanese equivalents (and SOME of those Euro designs are NOT original...like the new Brabus wheel...I saw that style wheel from a Japanese manufacturer a while back...but the Japanese one was a 1 piece, Brabus has both a 1 and 2 piece)....I'm not a big fan of making my Japanese car into a wannabe Euro car...if I want the Euro look, I'll buy a Euro car...

Now if Hamann decided to make wheels that fit, from the factory (meaning they WANT Japanese cars to have their wheels), then IMO that's OK (like MAE which is a Mercedes tuner but now makes 5x114.3 bolt pattern wheels for Japanese cars)...

Hehehehe..this post is getting long...what was the original topic of this thread? Hmmm, maybe I should make this it's own thread...

neomatrix

I have been following this thread and all I can say is that this is a very good and healthy discussion of two opposing views. 808state and Manaray have both very good points.

Manaray, on your last posting you said that MAE (Mercedes tuner) is now OK for Japanese car since they make the 5 x 114.3 pattern for Japanese cars. With that statement in mind, does it make Carlsson ( another Mercedes tuner ) OK also as they now make the same bolt pattern ( 1/6 Evo) per tirerack.com and tmengineering? I mention this since this style which looks very good on the LS400 is not available on any Japanese-made aftermarket wheels.

808state

manaray-

you asked:
i chose the hamann hm2 based on these criterias (in no particular order):

PRICE - $350/rim not including shipping, taxes and surchages.
LOOKS - classic 5 star design with machine/polished lip/dish look. not looking for chrome either (more unsprung weight).
SIZE - 18 x 8.5 (the wider the better especially on a sc400). i also might have gone with 18x8 but not a 18 x 7. stock size for the sc400 is 16x7 and if i'm going to plus size the new rim, i better get more rubber to the ground for better traction.
QUALITY - this is subjective. since this is a german turner rim, i'd figure if they use it on the autobahns, it must be good?!?! i think it has some kind of certification also (tuv?). i could be wrong though. i'm a little confused about this tuv, jwl(?), etc. i did see somekind of stamp on the inside of the rim though.
FIT ON AUTO - will fit on a sc400 with tokiko/eibach setup with no fender modifications needed (using 245/40/18 tires). only minor modfication to rim needed for the 5x114.3 bolt pattern.
CUSTOMER SERVICE: always had great customer service with todd at www.tmengineering.net and was a wealth of info. also got my suspension from todd.

your suggestions of hre 545 ($890 and up) and fiske fm5 are good 3 piece rims that were way out of my price range ($650-$1,300). i think rays was also out of the price range ($290-680, the lower price probably for lower size rims 13s, 14s, etc) and not sure about the width. never heard of works?

racing hart m5 was another good option again, out of the price range($480-$870). then again, ever since the fast and the furious, i'm sure there are a lot of cars out there with this rim on it. also, rivets on rims isn't my thing (you'll find out when you gotta clean each and every one of them). but you can go with a staggered stance with this (larger width rears) but i wouldn't be able to rotate my rims if i did.

ro_ja formula 5 rims was another rim out of my price range($390-$575). i like the simple design, the machine lip ..ohhh..ahhh..

also considered the centerlines 464. i didn't check to see if they came in 18s and if they have the correct backspacing for the sc400. however, they do have the correct bolt pattern sizes available for 17s and come in a polished finish. $329.95/rim at summit racing equipment.

*please note prices are from super street april 2001 annual wheel and tire adventure, summit, and fikse.

but basically, i got what i wanted with the hamanns hm2. plus sized (18x8.5) rim,the 5 spoke design with machine lip, and customer service(i got a rim and tire combo), all at an affordable price. sorry manaray, i don't have any microsoft stocks i can give you to make affordable parts for the sc400 line of cars.

however, you might be able to info the rest of the clublexus community with alternatives that i might not have thought of with the criterias i had. i know the sc400/sc300 community suggests getting a rim with a dish/lip feel to it.

Manaray

Neo - You know, Carlsson has been of a interest to me lately. I have a feeling that they MIGHT be doing Lexus cars in the future...don't quote me on that, but I've seen/found some little tidbits of information that suggest Carlsson might be expanding their horizons (if they do, I'll be the first in like to get their new forged 1 piece wheel in 20"!)

If Carlsson is in fact making 5x114.3 (I don't trust what TireRack says 100% of the time when it comes to wheels...I've caught them in a few lies) then I suppose it would be OK...but I would much rather see Carlsson (or their importer) do some advertising (like MAE does in Japan)...otherwise, I get the impression that they're somewhat shy (or embarassed) to support the Japanese market...

As for the 1/6 Evo style, I agree that it looks good on the LS...but then again, it's just a good looking wheel that I think looks good on A LOT of large sedans (Japanese or German)...

808 - Well since PRICE was a large factor, I can see why you did what you did (not that I would even in your situation)....Works is another large Japanese wheel manufacturer...http://www.work-wheels.co.jp/wheels/index/

Since you're price range was $350/wheel, it automatically knocks out 3-piece wheels as they're usualy in the $500+ range. Hmm...I have been out of the 18" wheel market for a long time now so I haven't been keeping up with what's available in the 18" world...maybe the Hamann's were the only decent choice...

As for the weight, the HM2's are cast so they're not light to start with...I'm not a big fan of chrome though either (it does add unnecessary weight...high polish is a better option for shine)....

Now you got me curious to see what's available in the 18" world...